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Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

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Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#31

Post by frickinLasers »

GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #7

They're about 30 years too late on this one. Police and the FBI have been using EOD robots with shotguns for a long time now and have even killed a few people with them. In a hostage situation or standoff, they'll send in the robot with food or a phone hanging from the arm, which has a Remington semi-automatic shotgun attached to the base. Ruby Ridge is one of the more famous examples.

The primary purpose of that shotgun is IED/UXO disruption, ostensibly. It's unfortunate that the robots have been used as weapons, and that people aren't in prison for it. But I think arming AI-equipped drones specifically to kill is a much more worrisome threat.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#32

Post by loup-vaillant »

> But police technologies malfunction all the time.

> When, inevitably, a robot unjustifiably injures or kills someone--who would be held responsible?

That Robocop scene where ED209 kills that poor executive used to be a joke. Though now that I think of it, Paul Verhoeven was probably serious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5NAswnEewg

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#33

Post by hermannj314 »

I am not sure I agree with the EFF on this one.

If the future of cars is autonomous to save lives, then the future of police could be the same for the same reasons.

The 1951 version of the The Day the Earth Stood Still, with an all-powerful robot GORT that neutralized human aggression left an imprint on me. I honestly think a legion of GORTs will be better than a legion of humans - if only because I believe the end of the line for robots will be significantly better than human potential.

John Henry 'loses' against the machine in the end, now matter how much we root for him.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#34

Post by chrisseaton »

plank_time wrote: post #30

The militarization of the police in the US is a huge problem that is out of control. I was extremely disappointed that Obama didn’t not only rein in this militarization but effectively made it worse. We are now having to deal with a generation of cops who think they are GI Joe but don’t have the training. This is why so many unarmed people are getting shot by the cops, because they start their day thinking they are i…

I don’t understand why normal community police are armed at all. There’s absolutely no need for it.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#35

Post by doc_gunthrop »

pmoriarty wrote: post #2

How often have proposed limits on police power actually been effected (or effective)? It seems that every year, year after year, and decade after decade police are only ever getting more and more powerful.

On the upside, three states so far have abolished qualified immunity (New Mexico joined the list earlier this year). The first was Colorado in 2020. So there's hope this may spread to other states in the coming years.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#36

Post by frickinLasers »

millzlane wrote: post #20
GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #7

They're about 30 years too late on this one. Police and the FBI have been using EOD robots with shotguns for a long time now and have even killed a few people with them. In a hostage situation or standoff, they'll send in the robot with food or a phone hanging from the arm, which has a Remington semi-automatic shotgun attached to the base. Ruby Ridge is one of the more famous examples.

The guy in Texas was the first IIRC killed with an explosive. https://www.cnet.com/news/dallas-shooter-killed-by-bomb-equi...

And that appears to be the first case on US soil where a robot was actually used to kill.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#37

Post by rhn_mk1 »

frickinLasers wrote: post #31
GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #7

They're about 30 years too late on this one. Police and the FBI have been using EOD robots with shotguns for a long time now and have even killed a few people with them. In a hostage situation or standoff, they'll send in the robot with food or a phone hanging from the arm, which has a Remington semi-automatic shotgun attached to the base. Ruby Ridge is one of the more famous examples.

The primary purpose of that shotgun is IED/UXO disruption, ostensibly. It's unfortunate that the robots have been used as weapons, and that people aren't in prison for it. But I think arming AI-equipped drones specifically to kill is a much more worrisome threat.

I mean, I get that some jargon is clear to those who have an interest in the topic. But how the hell is it acceptable to use sth like "IED/UXO" on an article about ethics? This is so obviously not a well known term (and not searchable).

My mind boggles.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#38

Post by hjek »

_zzaw wrote: post #24
underseacables wrote: post #10

I’m less worried about the police doing this than I am rogue nation, groups, and individuals. It’s only a matter of time until Hamas launches an armed, low flying, autonomous drone swarm in the heart of Tel Aviv. The book “Kill Decision” by Daniel Suarez convinced me that we have less to fear from government and more to fear from private actors when it comes to lethal drones. Actually, I’m really surprised it hasn’t…

Hamas is already doing this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2021/05/14/hamas-... I'm only surprised we're not seeing more of this from domestic terrorist groups. Anyone with minimal technical skill could probably order a hobbyist drone, attach something nasty, and figure out how to remotely detonate it with a phone. Also, I suspect that arguing cops shouldn't be able to use armed robots for extreme situat…

> Hamas is already doing this

And the IDF too: https://www.thedailybeast.com/israel-is-sending-robots-with-...

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#39

Post by GartzenDeHaes »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #37
frickinLasers wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary purpose of that shotgun is IED/UXO disruption, ostensibly. It's unfortunate that the robots have been used as weapons, and that people aren't in prison for it. But I think arming AI-equipped drones specifically to kill is a much more worrisome threat.

I mean, I get that some jargon is clear to those who have an interest in the topic. But how the hell is it acceptable to use sth like "IED/UXO" on an article about ethics? This is so obviously not a well known term (and not searchable). My mind boggles.

Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD), Improvised Explosive Device (IED), Unexploded Ordnance (UXO). Civilian police use of robotics started with EOD robots, often borrowed from the military.

Re: Don’t Let Police Arm Autonomous or Remote-Controlled Robots and Drones

#40

Post by jMyles »

hermannj314 wrote: post #33

I am not sure I agree with the EFF on this one. If the future of cars is autonomous to save lives, then the future of police could be the same for the same reasons. The 1951 version of the The Day the Earth Stood Still, with an all-powerful robot GORT that neutralized human aggression left an imprint on me. I honestly think a legion of GORTs will be better than a legion of humans - if only because I believe the end o…

> If the future of cars is autonomous to save lives, then the future of police could be the same for the same reasons.

The presumption that there is such a thing as "the future of police" is worrisome. The now nearly 200-year experiment of designating a tiny subset of the population as exclusively responsible for public safety and law enforcement goes very poorly. The abolitionist movement is as strong today as any time since the conclusion of the American Civil War.

When do we start getting serious about visualizing a future without police?

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