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Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

philpapers.org

161–170 of 184 posts

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#161
To me consciousness is very simple. It is simply us observing our brain at work. We can can experience light, that is how we observe many processes in the external world. But what we really experience is some changes going on in the neurons in our brains. Then we can also experience sounds and touch etc. That means we can experience and observe our own neural activity.

Consciousness is the "sixth sense" that allows us to experience what is going on in some specific parts of our brain with which we "observe our brain's observation activity".

(So to be clear I'm not talking about any paranormal sense. If that exists it is the 7th sense. Consciousness is the 6th)

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#162
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not surprised you if you learned that the program you wrote in C++ and compiled to machine code would produce "subjective" feelings in the CPU when executed?

If the program was coded to produce subjective feeling, no. Otherwise, it would suprise me very much. I believe what we call consciousness is selected for and is written into the structure our brains have. I do not beleive that consciouness exists outside of living brains. Maybe I am wrong but so far there has not been much evidence. I also do not believe consciousness is simply an accident but that it was specifical…

> If the program was coded to produce subjective feeling

How would such a program work? What would it do in order to produce subjective feelings?

You do understand that you can not just write a program to do some arbitrary X if that's not within the capabilities of the hardware it's running on.

For example, you cannot write a program that would make the laptop fly. You need something that's physically capable of flying that can also be controlled by software. Like a drone or something.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#163
post #16

Personally, it amazes me how many people find it difficult to believe or accept, that human consciousness would just be an emergent property of how neural cells function and are connected together. That all of human consciousness would reside on a higher level than the laws of molecular physics and chemistry. That consciousness emerges from the level of cell biology. No need to postulate anything supernatural, or any…

At what point does it immerge? What is the smallest unit? Is it a magic number of neurons, or when they get arranged in a certain way? There's a mystery in these questions, and I think that's well accepted. I've heard this "emergent property" explanation before but it seems kind of a handwavey way of avoiding answering any questions. "It just appears when you have enough neurons" is probably true but how?!

> "It just appears when you have enough neurons" is probably true but how?!

Then you don't disagree with parent. You're saying that we don't know enough to fully explain consciousness, which I think everyone would agree with. Parent is just saying that our not understanding it is not because there's something outside of the known laws of physics that we're missing - we just don't know to understand how the laws of physics give rise to consciousness, but they do.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#165
post #16

Personally, it amazes me how many people find it difficult to believe or accept, that human consciousness would just be an emergent property of how neural cells function and are connected together. That all of human consciousness would reside on a higher level than the laws of molecular physics and chemistry. That consciousness emerges from the level of cell biology. No need to postulate anything supernatural, or any…

You know I was thinking why humans do not distinguish between material possessions in an immaterial world (video games) and material possessions in a material world.

Well, it turns out there is no difference. We value immaterial things because of the immaterial information we have about them. If I spend 3 months of salary on a shiny rock (diamonds) what makes the diamond special? It clearly isn't worth that much. There are substitutes and even artificial diamonds that are flawless that are superior to natural diamonds. It's only in combination with the information about the 3 months that the diamond ring becomes valuable and only to those who have the information and value the information. If I tell my wife that I spent 1 month even though I spent 3 months she will think I am cheap. If I divorce and marry again the new wife will not care about the old ring.

There is no material world for us. We are just an information processing being and our body is just a puppet.

If information processing is all we do then it should be clear that we can create consciousness through simulation and given the right structure it is not a matter of yes or no but rather a matter of degree.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#166
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't throw neurons and emergence together to explain away the precise structural and functional integration of those components that bring out consciousness. > You have to have a continuity of explanation between the "list of parts" and the final thing. That's exactly the argument I am making. I believe the most plausible explanation is that there is a precise structural and functional integration located in t…

> I believe the most plausible explanation is that there is a precise structural and functional integration located in the brain which gives rise to consciousness. Without sufficiently explicating what that structure may be and how it interfaces with the purported non conscious parts of the body, it is too big of a leap to claim that a locale that is not even the whole brain is essential to consciousness. Regarding t…

I never made a concrete claim that consciousness is located in a specific brain region. I speculated that, but the truth is we don't know if it's one sub-region which represents consciousness, or a combination of many.

As for "how it interfaces with the purported non conscious parts of the body", this part is incredibly obvious. Afferent nerves take information from sensory receptors into the brain, and efferent neurons transport motor signals from the brain to the muscles.

There's no mystery at all about the interface: if consciousness is a product of some sub-region of the brain, the interface is the set of synapses carrying information into and out of that region.

> it is too big of a leap to claim that a locale that is not even the whole brain is essential to consciousness.

I would argue the evidence is incredibly strong that consciousness is localized at least within the brain, if not within a more specialized subset of the brain. Basically every intervention we know about which is capable of having a profound effect on consciousness has to act on the brain. You can amputate an arm or a leg, and consciousness remains intact. However psychoactive drugs interfering with normal activity at the synapse, and trauma to the tissue of the brain causes reliable and repeatable effects on consciousness. If consciousness is indeed a property which originates outside the brain as well, why is it that we can only affect it by taking physical action at the brain itself?

As for the argument that it's not "the whole brain", there's a lot of evidence for that as well. For instance, people with various forms of brain damage can lose certain functions without losing consciousness. For instance, people with lesions in the primary visual cortex may not be able to see, but they surely retain their consciousness and subjective experience.

> ...embodied cognition. There are cool experiments like people’s cognitive skills diminishing when they are prevented from making hand gestures.

This one is very easy to explain and there's no revelation there. Basically all of psychology research has shown that if you divide someone's attention, they perform worse on cognitive tasks. If you artificially require someone to restrict their hand movement, they must spend some of their cognitive capacity thinking about their hands, so they're going to do worse at everything else relative to baseline. If this didn't happen, it would be extremely shocking.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#167
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This boring explanation is in the framework of classical physics. Quantum physics is very different. In QM, physical objects don't have definite states until observed. Any observation requires an observer. So, we have that states are relative to observers. But what is observer? It is our consciousness in the first place.

> But what is observer? It is our consciousness You fell for a ruse. Your phone can use its camera to observe quantum phenomena such as shot noise just fine. Observations have nothing to do with consciousness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%E2%80%93Wigner_int...

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#168

A few thoughts. 1. Sean is leaving CalTech at the end of next year. It's not a huge surprise, given his interests, that he is pursuing the issues in the philosophy of mind that intersect with quantum physics. Most work in this area is unadulterated quackery, and he is one of the few physicists who understands philosophy well enough to not make me cringe. 2. Most physicists implicitly engage in ontological metaphysics…

> Most work in this area is unadulterated quackery

Citation needed: please say, exactly, to what or to whom you are referring.[0] In my experience with the study the work is precisely opposite of quackery: integrity, veracity, forthrightness.[1] My favorites are rivals Searle and Dennett, and though I believe Churchland(s) are incorrect, their work provides deep insight into brain and neurology for an excellent foundation for students of Philosophy of Mind. The point here is, even those that are incorrect (such as Descartes and other dualists) are not quacks: only through dissent do things move forward. Please give us examples of "quackery" in Philosophy of Mind. Because from where I am standing, any of them that rely on reductionism, which I expect a physicist would, are likely in error, because no matter how you slice up brain, you will never find mind.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philosophers_of_mind [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does it immerge? What is the smallest unit? Is it a magic number of neurons, or when they get arranged in a certain way? There's a mystery in these questions, and I think that's well accepted. I've heard this "emergent property" explanation before but it seems kind of a handwavey way of avoiding answering any questions. "It just appears when you have enough neurons" is probably true but how?!

The "degree" of consciousness is certainly a function of the number of neurons functionally specialized for this particular purpose.

Is your "certainly" analogous to the way young folk today use the word "literally"?

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#170
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Emergent phenomena' is the 'draw the rest of the damn owl' of this conversation. It's doing way too much work to be useful. It's like saying that life is an emergent phenomena from condensed energy.

It is as good as any sensible hypothesis: it allows us to focus on a more promising direction of research.

A hypothesis is an unproved proposition that is actually susceptible to proof (or disproof). That is, it must make testable predictions.

What predictions, testable in principle, are made by this "emergent phenomenon" hypothesis?

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