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I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

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Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#161

Post by bitanarch »

regularjack wrote: post #140
cj wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s these people I think about when reading the weekly threads here on developer burn out.

Burnout is a legitimate health issue for many people in this forum, and elsewhere.

Agreed.

Humans are inherently fragile beings with almost no redundant parts. If I fry your brain with long hours and politically hostile work environment and drive you to depression; vs. I fry your brain with long hours in physically exhausting environments. The results are the same - your brain is fried. One type of hostile work environment is not necessarily better or worse than another type of hostile work environment.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#162

Post by michaelmrose »

boring_twenties wrote: post #118
distributedsean wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe people are even having this conversation. As a civilization we solved this problem about a century ago. We know the solution. In the US labour law has been subverted and undermined. Thats the problem. It's not that nothing can be done about it. Lots can be done and has been done around the globe (but predominately in advanced economies, of which the US is one).

Which civilization solved this, exactly? Of the advanced economies, Western Europe seems to have the exact issue identified by GP: the hardest working/most ambitious workers move to the US. On the other hand, in Japan "death by overwork" seems to be close to or at the level of a genuine public health crisis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi

If the US implemented more reasonable restrictions on labor in the US do you propose the hardest working most ambitious are going to move to China or Brazil?

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#163

Post by dennis_jeeves »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #133
nemothekid wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see no contradiction or flaw. What I desire is a world where it is possible for any person to survive working 20 hours a week with a couple months off. What GP is arguing is that is achieved by fixing the pay distribution, not by limiting hours. If you only limit hours but don't fix the pay problem you create perverse incentives where people have to work undocumented "overtime" or face the threat that they will b…

I am also not describing a scenario where we limit hours. While I do have ideas on solutions, I am not even proscribing a particular solution. As I said, we must first agree that we are capable of changing things. Some want to imagine everything is as it is due to unchanging natural laws, when in fact individuals and collectives made a lot of decisions along the way. I suggest we question those decisions and imagine…

Too bad you are being down voted and being misunderstood. I fully agree with you that in this day given our over all productivity, humans should be able to, in theory able to design systems to minimize work without co-coercion. But as you partially correctly observed, typical human nature ( ranging from bureaucratic govts, to seeing survival as a zero sum game ) is a hindrance to achieving this goal. Where I completely disagree is that you will completely not change people's mind en masse even if you showed them a working example, so in a manner speaking any strategizing that one does is moot.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#164

Post by [deleted] »

cj wrote: post #128
akudha wrote: post #16

Jeez! 59 year old guy with the same salary for the last 10 years. People working in 100 degree temperatures with no air conditioning. This is depressing to read :(

It’s these people I think about when reading the weekly threads here on developer burn out.

[deleted]

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#165

Post by GravitasFailure »

bko wrote: post #102
knuthsat wrote: post #2

Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work? Is the world getting hard enough that there is no alternative? Whenever I see people working really hard in other parts of the world, especially when the country is filled with other opportunities, I always wonder is it just everyone else that is raising the bar and now the standard is very time consuming work. For example, there's year long touri…

From the article: > After 37 years, I still get forced to work 12 hours a day, seven days a week... I make $20.50 [an hour] after 37 years here. Assuming they obey overtime laws, he's' making $112,996 a year ((40 * 20.5) + (44 * 1.5 * 20.5) * 52). I think that has something to do with it. There likely aren't any alternatives where someone with that skill set can make nearly double the median income for Topeka, Kansas…

It looks like Kansas overtime law kicks in at 46 hours in a week[0], so closer to $110k. Maybe a touch less since they probably shut down periodically for machine maintenance.

Thing is, this sort of schedule turns into a weird form of neo-slavery. You don't have enough time to yourself to job hunt, even if something is even available, and you can't schedule an interview around your work. Saving money can be nigh impossible even when making that much because you no don't really have the time to try doing anything the cheap way (making your own food, fixing things yourself, etc.). It turns into this vicious, endless cycle of nothing but work and sleep. If you try take a day off, you run the risk of getting fired.

[0]https://www.overtime-flsa.com/kansas-labor-laws/

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#166

Post by willbw »

bitanarch wrote: post #161
regularjack wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burnout is a legitimate health issue for many people in this forum, and elsewhere.

Agreed. Humans are inherently fragile beings with almost no redundant parts. If I fry your brain with long hours and politically hostile work environment and drive you to depression; vs. I fry your brain with long hours in physically exhausting environments. The results are the same - your brain is fried. One type of hostile work environment is not necessarily better or worse than another type of hostile work environ…

I would push back against "the results are the same". They are objectively not the same. Of course physical and mental exhaustion are both bad, but I think people would prefer to work in an office than a factory and trying to equate the two experiences is a little reductive.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#167

Post by tolbish »

balfirevic wrote: post #156
mcculley wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of Pollan's recently well-publicized assertion that caffeine made the modern world. I am unconvinced. I quit caffeine a few years ago. I'm not an unusual mutant. I have the genes on markers rs4410790 and rs2470893 that indicate a typical reaction to caffeine. ( https://enki.org/2017/08/13/quitting-caffeine/ ) Most people experience a temporary increase in productivity until they build up a tolerance for ca…

> Thereafter, they are just paying and consuming to avoid headaches and reach the baseline. No, it is also for a great deal of enjoyment.

If that were true, everyone would be drinking decaf for the taste.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#168

Post by teawrecks »

cj wrote: post #128
akudha wrote: post #16

Jeez! 59 year old guy with the same salary for the last 10 years. People working in 100 degree temperatures with no air conditioning. This is depressing to read :(

It’s these people I think about when reading the weekly threads here on developer burn out.

Oh yeah? Well I think about child slaves working in coal mines.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#169

Post by rsynnott »

knuthsat wrote: post #2

Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work? Is the world getting hard enough that there is no alternative? Whenever I see people working really hard in other parts of the world, especially when the country is filled with other opportunities, I always wonder is it just everyone else that is raising the bar and now the standard is very time consuming work. For example, there's year long touri…

> Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work?

Weak labour laws and enforcement of same, weak unions.

This and worse used to be completely standard in all industrialised countries.

> Everyone, through culture, decided not to overwork

I mean… Madeira’s subject to the EU working time directive. It’s not just culture; it’s law.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#170

Post by wkavey »

teawrecks wrote: post #168
cj wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s these people I think about when reading the weekly threads here on developer burn out.

Oh yeah? Well I think about child slaves working in coal mines.

The whataboutism is real.
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