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Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

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Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#191

One reason that often gets glossed over (including in this article) is how (non-online) Masters programs are huge moneymakers as a ticket to working in the US. I've seen that in CS programs at University of Buffalo and Yale, a majority of Masters students are from abroad, especially from Asia. Basically, if you wanted to work in tech in the US, you could either: - Find a multinational company in your home country, wo…

Assuming you're actually smart and skilled - wouldn't it be better to just start your own consulting business, or if you're really ambitious, eventually an agency? Aren't H1-B visa workers mostly in extremely HCOL areas and significantly underpaid / taken advantage of? I imagine if you're from India and you really want to get out of India - this sounds like a good deal (although wouldn't $50k for tuition be hard to g…

"Smart and skilled" are only loosely correlated to success as consultant and small business.

This is not meant to be sarcasm. There are many other characteristics necessary and better indicators. I am smart skilled and successful. But I made a lousy consultant when I tried it too early in life - (self)salesmanship, business skills, tenacity and courage, people skills, and a specific view on risk acceptance are far more important. Relationships and a full Rolodex and branding / reputation don't hurt either.

(A specific view on integrity and ethics too. I'm not saying no integrity or no ethics. But the salespersons / deal closers in my area are all honourable truthful people whose job I couldn't do because my view of truth wouldn't necessarily correspond to theirs)

Finally, if we grant your last statement that most people want renumeration and happy life, for many smart and skilled people, stress and risk that comes with consultancy business does not contribute to happiness.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#192

One of the key issues I see is that we don’t place a high enough value on adult education. A philosophy professor of mine told me the word “andragogy”, which is the theory of adult education. It’s different from “pedagogy” which means the education of children. I always thought that learning is learning. It never occurred to me that there’s a difference between how and why children learn and that it could be differen…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_high_school In Denmark and some neighboring countries there's this concept of a school you can go to just to learn stuff later in life, as an ongoing thing. There's a whole bunch of themes (sports, history, etc), and often you can book yourself in for whatever amount of time makes sense for you.

> In Denmark and some neighboring countries there's this concept of a school you can go to just to learn stuff later in life, as an ongoing thing

We have those in the US; we don't have a general collective name for them, but there are both private for-profit ones with a variety of (mostly narrow) specialities, either standalone or as adjuncts to other related businesses (selling, e.g., products in the field that it teaches people to act in), plus community colleges, public libraries, public parks and rec departments, and museums tend to also have programs that serve this function, despite it not being their sole or primary function.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#193
post #40

My masters degree in Computer Science was incredibly educating and opened many career doors for me. It filled in a lot of gaps that my undergraduate education left, and significantly raised my profile amongst recruiters. CS might be the exception to the rule about Masters degrees though.

Conversely, I don't even have a bachelor's degree in CS, and I haven't suffered at all because of it. I got a job offer before graduating, and decided my time was better spent earning money than learning stuff I would probably never have any use for. Rather than focusing on degrees, I think it's a lot more important to focus on learning, however you don't know what's important to learn until you actually start workin…

I spent the first ten years of my programming career without a degree, like you. I got a SoftEng MSc at 30. It was worth it. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#194

One of the key issues I see is that we don’t place a high enough value on adult education. A philosophy professor of mine told me the word “andragogy”, which is the theory of adult education. It’s different from “pedagogy” which means the education of children. I always thought that learning is learning. It never occurred to me that there’s a difference between how and why children learn and that it could be differen…

I'm a life long learner myself. I have to agree that the traditional education system is lacking and is very poorly set up at catering for people like us. If you want to take classes as a working adult, you're pretty much limited to night school. Which, for reasons I will never understand, seems to be mostly limited to languages (and oddly specific things like TIG welding). Although some universities seem to be offering philosophy courses on an evening schedule as well.

I get that you need a big enough audience in order to set up any class, and supply/demand is definitely an issue. But I think the demand is much higher than what the supply side seems to cater for.

Things like Khan Academy are great, but they've begun to scale down their offering in favour of university prep. The Open University has some truly great content, but it's prohibitively expensive. MOOCs seem very hit or miss, and often lack a good mechanism for feedback. And quite frankly, I enjoy being in a classroom full of motivated people.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#195
Many moons ago I earned a Master's degree from the UT Austin CS department while I was working full-time. Reading the article, I was struck by how much my own experience differed. Because of my Master's degree I feel that my technical abilities improved significantly, and I enjoyed career advancement as a direct result of my efforts.

That said, I'm going to agree with a lot the article. If you're going into $300k debt to get an advanced degree in screenwriting, you're probably making a poor decision. As is the case with most things in life, there can be a tremendous variation in what a "Master's degree" ends up being for you.

My undergraduate degree was Computer Engineering, which at the time was under the purview of the EE department at my university. As such, it was heavier on things like BJT properties and lighter on topics like algorithm complexity theory, modern language constructs, and database and networking theory. Once I got into industry, I quickly realized that I was missing a lot of knowledge that my peers had in these areas, and I felt it was important to find a way to fill those gaps.

My employer had a program where they would let me work as a full-time employee while I simultaneously pursued higher education. They covered my tuition so long as I maintained a minimum acceptable GPA. Since UT Austin was nearby, I jumped at the opportunity, as they have a very reputable CS program. Tuition ended up costing all of $13k over the 3 years that it took me to complete the program while working full time. Meanwhile I pulled an entry-level tech salary with benefits.

I already knew that I wanted to focus on security in my career, so in every class that had a term paper or final project, I focused on something security-related. For my databases course I studied and implemented k-anonymity. For my computer architecture courses I implemented Blowfish on an experimental CPU architecture and implemented data cache tagging as a mechanism for isolating regions of memory to specific chunks of executable code. For my networking class I wrote a paper summarizing some recent advancements in onion routing protocols. For my machine learning class I implemented a k-nearest-neighbor algorithm to look at access patterns done on encrypted storage to infer the types of files being accessed and the applications manipulating the files.

All the while I filled many gaps in my knowledge on Computer Science as a discipline, and that helped prepare me to eventually be able to pass the infamous highly technical Google interview loop. From that point I leveraged the expertise I had developed in the field of security to build some notable security features, one of which you are using right now if you happen to be reading this on an Android device.

If I hadn't pursued my Master's degree, I honestly can't say whether I would have had the same level of career success in the years that followed. Because I went to a public university that didn't charge exhorbitant fees (and because my employer covered them anyway), I did it without accumulating any debt. I had specific personal goals for what knowledge and skills I wanted to develop in the program. I took advantage of the opportunity to deep-dive on topics with knowledgeable professors who were accomplished in their respective fields. I honed my knowledge of data structures and algorithms to be better prepared for technical interviews.

So the takeaway perhaps is that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about a Master's degree. If you're going into significant debt to zombie through the base requirements to get a piece of paper, in general you can't expect to get the same results as you would if you were highly intentional and strategic about where you go and how much you pay to go there.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#196
I graduated from a no-name state school in the early 90s into a down job market. I was at the top of my class and did well on the GREs and was offered a fellowship to a PhD program at a private engineering school (RPI). I enrolled in the PhD program, and I used the time saved by the fellowship to take an overload of classes. Between the overload, and transferring in credits from graduate level classes I had taken as an undergrad, I bailed out with an almost free MS after one calendar year. The cost to me was the full price I paid for the credits to do the MS project.

IMHO, I learned exactly nothing from my MS. My undergrad classes at a no-name state school were more challenging, and I felt like the grad level classes were a poor copy. The MS project was useless drudgery that I was not interested in at all.

The entire thing was a waste of time, except for the piece of paper that I got at the end. I firmly believe that piece of paper opened several doors that might otherwise have been closed, and has resulted in better jobs and better pay throughout my career.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#197
I think the title overstates it, even per it's own arguments in the article itself whose criticism is more narrow in scope. (Though criticisms on high prices do apply across the board)

What it really takes issue with are programs that amount to a professional certificate, essentially a sort of trade school for a particular industry or role within that industry.

I don't think the same criticism of quality applies to more traditional academically-oriented programs. For example an undergrad Biology major is essentially getting a wide survey of the field. At the master's level it goes into a lot more depth and you usually have some fairly specific area of focus. In short, you're acquiring a base of knowledge rather than focussing mostly on the application of that knowledge. Far different than, say, a 9-month Master's degree in cloud infrastructure that may be obsolete before you pay off the loan.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#198
post #40

My masters degree in Computer Science was incredibly educating and opened many career doors for me. It filled in a lot of gaps that my undergraduate education left, and significantly raised my profile amongst recruiters. CS might be the exception to the rule about Masters degrees though.

I think this really depends on your undergrad, the value of masters degree seems to diminish with the following factors:

- A well taught undergrad degree in CS (Masters fill gaps caused by bad classes or different fields)

- Graduated with undergrad degree recently (getting a Masters degree after being out of school for 10 years can be a good refresher and update on how the field has evolved/changed)

- Masters degree classes in an area of CS you are familiar with (Masters degree is a great opportunity to take classes in areas that you care about but don't know well, if you are a great Rails webdev with 7 years experience, then taking a Masters degree class in Rail WebDev is just wasting your time.)

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#199

"We can’t just rely on the market to provide all of the quality discipline that master’s programs need." It seems like if the federal government stopped lending for master's degrees, and allowed students to file for bankruptcy to get out of private loans, then the market might very well sort everything out.

Yes, having government involved always creates inflation. It's no coincidence that the two areas with most government involvement, education and health care, are the things that have outpaced every other measure of inflation significantly.

The problem is that "government involvement" in the US is synonymous with "throw money at the problem." It's a easy way to get results in the short term, so which gets you political approval, but in the long term, it just creates a money black hole.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If testing for IQ works for your purposes, then why not use GMAT, GRE, SAT scores? I’m not sure any of this helps, though, since it would only prove you’re good at the test.

Standardized tests are highly predictive of IQ. https://slate.com/technology/2014/04/what-do-sat-and-iq-test... Here's a layman read. Here's a little more depth : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/

Just wondering, as someone currently preparing for SAT - why is it so easy to drastically improve one's performance on standardized tests if they predict IQ? My score was pretty mediocre (due to a year of slacking off during COVID) but after some practice I improved it significantly - does that mean my IQ is greatly increasing as well?

I know of some very, very clever people who do not perform well, and the opposite too.

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