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Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

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Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#171

1. You don't need a masters to apply to a doctorate program. 2. You're not making that much more than someone with a bachelors and 2/3 additional years of experience. I managed two people with a masters degree at a previous position and they weren't any better then the person I hired with a high school diploma. In fact I'd say the death metal guy with the HS diploma ran circles around them. Doesn't seem like a sound…

What bothers me the most about US higher education is the sheer waste of time and money it can be. This is directly connected to how bad our secondary (say, middle to high school) education has become.

In terms of secondary education, after a dozen years of schooling young adults are launched into the world with exactly zero marketable skills. Zero.

What is the average US high school graduate good for?

Stacking boxes and, after training, making coffee and a number of other low skill/knowledge jobs.

This, from my perspective, is a travesty, a serious breach of the trust we place on a system of education that seems to have no ability to deliver real value for the money we spend.

At the university level we easily add a year or two to degrees by adding what I call “degree-irrelevant” courses.

An engineering degree should not have —as a graduation requirement— history, social science or non-technical classes.

Please note I said “graduation requirement”. You should not need to pass a class on Middle Earth History and Poetry to obtain an Electrical Engineering degree. This is silly and it wastes a tremendous amount of time and money.

Why do we have this?

Well, our secondary education sucks, so we teach and re-teach that which should have been learned in high school.

Worse than that, because the government is in the student loan business (and they are dumb as can be) the education “mafia” figured out how to fatten-up degrees to extract more money out of the system.

A history class is inexpensive to teach, and yet it costs the same per credit than, say, a chemistry class that requires more infrastructure. Degrees are padded with crap no employer values at all.

If you go to a university that costs, say, $30K to $50K per year, you likely have somewhere in the range of $30K to $80K in coursework loans that is utterly irrelevant to your degree.

The other angle is that, without this coursework we would be able to graduate engineers about 25% faster than we do, which would be a competitive advantage.

These graduates would start their professional lives with about 25% less debt. The lifetime benefits of this cannot be understated.

The opportunity cost, for the person and prospective employer, of taking an additional year or more to graduate people with technical degrees is, in the aggregate, massive in scale.

Someone might say: A well rounded education is important!

Absolutely agreed! Just not as a graduation requirement that adds tens of thousands of dollars to the already abusive cost of education and, in most cases, over a year of time to obtaining a degree.

This is where secondary education should shine. We should demand that young adults emerge from that system with both a well-rounded education and marketable skills.

Society would benefit immensely if we were better at the business of education, from K through university.

EDIT:

As one of many personal examples. Many years ago I hired an EE out of Intel. He spent around five years there designing switching power supplies. That's what I hired him for. He worked for my company for several years doing exactly that, designing switching power supplies. The fact that his US degree required him to take a bunch of irrelevant courses added exactly zero value to what he could do for anyone who might hire him, myself included. This means this person wasted a year+ of his life in school taking courses nobody cares about (and nobody will pay him for). A year later I hired yet another EE to do the same work. His degree was from Europe. He had nearly zero non-STEM coursework. He performed just as well, and in some aspects better, than the US-graduated EE.

I don't understand why we allow the education system to do things that are demonstrably detrimental from nearly every angle. If someone does want to study philosophy or history while obtaining a degree, no problem at all. It should be THEIR decision. And, if they think it might have future value to employers, they would get to highlight the fact that they took and passed such coursework. They could even opt to go for a minor in a certain area of study. Again, this should be the decision of the student and it should self-select based on the ultimate value assigned to such studies by society, not imposed upon every single student by a system with already ridiculous cost structures.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#172

One reason that often gets glossed over (including in this article) is how (non-online) Masters programs are huge moneymakers as a ticket to working in the US. I've seen that in CS programs at University of Buffalo and Yale, a majority of Masters students are from abroad, especially from Asia. Basically, if you wanted to work in tech in the US, you could either: - Find a multinational company in your home country, wo…

Well, even then framing a $50k degree as a workaround for US immigration woes, and not as an $50k worth of added value in terms of skills and education makes it sound like a racket, even if the numbers work out in the students' favour.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#173

I had a friend who was wanting to get a master's degree in poetry, and it cost about 45k a year, back in early 2000s. I strongly advised against it, my friend did not take well to my advice. Hope it all turned out well. I have no problem with people getting degrees in the arts. My spouse has a Master's in fine arts, from a university in Europe. But she didn't acquire any debt from that degree, while I did in the US w…

I think the debt problem is one of a predatory nature. I love music and history, but I came from a family that pretty much only got by because of welfare. I didn't have the time or money to waste getting a degree in something that had zero job prospects after school. You show a $50k a year degree to an 18 year old from a more middle to upper middle class family, though, and they're not going to understand how much mo…

> We were sold something that hasn't held true, and I think a lot of people are very bitter about that.

In what way has it not held true? 33% of Americans have at least a four year degree and earn an average of $1m more than their peers without over their lifetimes.

By all measures, university is a gateway to easy money after. So long as you finish.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#174

One reason that often gets glossed over (including in this article) is how (non-online) Masters programs are huge moneymakers as a ticket to working in the US. I've seen that in CS programs at University of Buffalo and Yale, a majority of Masters students are from abroad, especially from Asia. Basically, if you wanted to work in tech in the US, you could either: - Find a multinational company in your home country, wo…

we've had foreign job candidates with masters degrees in CS from top 50 schools who couldn't pass a simple programming test or who couldn't answer some basic CS questions on O(n) or whatnot.

I'm not talking sadistic google interview questions, these were things that anyone with a BS should be able to answer.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#175

One reason that often gets glossed over (including in this article) is how (non-online) Masters programs are huge moneymakers as a ticket to working in the US. I've seen that in CS programs at University of Buffalo and Yale, a majority of Masters students are from abroad, especially from Asia. Basically, if you wanted to work in tech in the US, you could either: - Find a multinational company in your home country, wo…

Assuming you're actually smart and skilled - wouldn't it be better to just start your own consulting business, or if you're really ambitious, eventually an agency? Aren't H1-B visa workers mostly in extremely HCOL areas and significantly underpaid / taken advantage of? I imagine if you're from India and you really want to get out of India - this sounds like a good deal (although wouldn't $50k for tuition be hard to g…

> Assuming you're actually smart and skilled

as an interviewer, I see many w/ masters degrees who are neither.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#176
post #112
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha I knew you were talking about Econ when I read the post. It seemed pretty clear it was PhD or gtfo when I did Econ undergrad. Masters seems like an actual scam.

Economics is one of the undergrad degrees that is often sort of generic--i.e. you don't really work in the field with just a BA/BS. And you need a PhD to actually be an economist so a Masters probably doesn't buy you much. (Not 100% true of course, but close enough.)

There are a few industries I'd consider as targets for economics. Management consulting and litigation consulting are top in those.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#177

One reason that often gets glossed over (including in this article) is how (non-online) Masters programs are huge moneymakers as a ticket to working in the US. I've seen that in CS programs at University of Buffalo and Yale, a majority of Masters students are from abroad, especially from Asia. Basically, if you wanted to work in tech in the US, you could either: - Find a multinational company in your home country, wo…

Assuming you're actually smart and skilled - wouldn't it be better to just start your own consulting business, or if you're really ambitious, eventually an agency? Aren't H1-B visa workers mostly in extremely HCOL areas and significantly underpaid / taken advantage of? I imagine if you're from India and you really want to get out of India - this sounds like a good deal (although wouldn't $50k for tuition be hard to g…

Consulting straight out of school is a really tough sell. Consultants are most often considered valuable by their employers because of their experience in a given industry.

I would not want to try to pitch myself as a consultant as a foreigner with little to no American work experience. If you’re doing it yourself, sales will be a challenge.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#178
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, degrees are "free" in Europe, and I don't want my tax money spent on people doing masters degrees on "poetry". The fact that you have to pay for your degree out of pocket may mean that more people will choose to do degrees that are worth something, which is a great thing for society overall. Having said that the prices of degrees in the US are outrageous. A middle ground should be found.

How bleak are our prospects as a civilisation when we reduce the value of a higher education in the arts, such as literature, to something as rudimentary as a waste of tax money. It is short sighted to think that since a "degree in poetry" won't yield a substantial dollar-value return economically, that it therefore has no value. Especially when several of recent history's social and political movements were in fact…

That's a very romantic view of society, but a graduate on poetry will most likely spend the rest of her days writing copy for a marketing agency, selling burgers, or cleaning latrines. And that's ignoring the fact that you really don't need to study "poetry" for four years to be able to write poems.

Re: Master’s degrees are the second biggest scam in higher education?

#179
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish schools got audited for that very thing. Schools are extremely discriminatory against adults not at application time, but when they offer classes. Not only do they not accommodate either, a lot of professors still pull BS where you need to hand in assignments at the end of class! There is absolutely nothing in the education system today that requires you to hand in something with such a short term time table.…

There are schools that are much more oriented (or have programs that are much more oriented) towards people who are working or are otherwise not attending school full time. I'm not sure I can really fault the average undergrad program for orienting things towards the 95% case situation. (Some schools are also much more commuter-oriented than others are.)

You are absolutely right and that definitely makes sense. But, and I have to preface this has been my experience, there are virtually no accommodations. School is your job when you go back to a university and colleges believe that is what you should be doing.

Now to the legalities. The Age Discrimination Act mandates any institution receiving federal funding from preventing someone from being able to participate[0]. So like a physical disability, if you only make stairs because "99% of people can walk" but cannot accommodate for someone in a wheelchair, you would be in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Same thing with making a website accessible to the blind. By making your courses only available during business hours, you essentially are telling working adults "we are preventing you from participating in mandatory courses because you cannot be at work during the class." Work, mind you, that will pay their bills, support their family, and keep them out of absurd debt bondage upon graduation.

When you make class at 8AM for 1.5 hours, Monday-Wednesday-Friday, you are discriminating against working adults. It doesn't matter if the discrimination is intentional. Your very allowance of not offering a course wholly online without a mandatory attended lecture or just a night class is pure evidence that you do not want non-traditional students. How can an college believe that someone who works full time can make that work? Night classes are at least an accommodation and can work.

What I've found is technical colleges, since they're catered toward people going back to school, they do a much better job all around. Also since they are city funded and not a state run university through tax payers, they can hire real employees. So when I ask an administrative question that is very important, I don't get "uh I'm not sure, let me ask a staff member since I'm only a student employee! Can you hold for 10 minutes?"

https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/ageoverview.html

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