Live data from Hacker News

Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

techpolicy.press

181–190 of 202 posts

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#181
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>John Lennon's voice doing an ad for Vox amps seems in poor taste. the Bourdain documentary we're talking about was created in order to generate profit; it has box-office showings and advertisement campaigns. A documentary is nice , but I fail to see how it's less of a product than Vox amplifiers, aside from some shallow altruism like "We're spreading the ideas of Bourdain", which could be done entirely without a pro…

I don’t understand, are you saying documentaries should be made to generate a loss? Do you think the same documentary would be better if it didn’t have advertising or box-office showings? I really don’t understand the logic here at all! Please explain rather than downvote like in the other comment where I ask about this.

>I don’t understand, are you saying documentaries should be made to generate a loss?

No, the 'for profit' nature of this venture is just the amoral cherry-on-top.

My real problems with this type of thing are many-fold :

1) Textual messages are often times created in such a way as to be convenient rather than to be read. Inflection and tone mostly go out the window when written out, so people tend to use lots of hyperbole and metaphor to better convey nuance like sarcasm -- this can quickly make someone who is eloquent in-person look moronic in-text, but people close to the individual know better and ignore the email parlance.

2) There is a level of artistry and creative interpretation when deciding how an AI voice generates text-to-speech. What samples are used, how is the phrase tempo'd, environmental interpretation, etc. The end product is very much not-Bourdain , but it's sold to people watching the documentary as Bourdain, so it's assumed that he said these things.. which leads to :

3) Personally I believe that the post-death 'image' of anyone should only be manipulated or altered by third-party testimonial and record-level evidence.

An unaware person watching this documentary would come out of the theater with the notion that Bourdain said things that he never said.

A third party is using Bourdain's own image to sell persona/image changes to the public on his own behalf, post-death -- I have major ethical and moral qualms with this idea, even with all the express permission of those around him and his family.

Regardless of who these people are that gave permission -- they're not him. The voice/image/actions of your own persona should probably never be tampered with by someone else -- even the closest people to him can't begin to know what he'd say internally, even if they may have felt that they had a good grasp.

Now, sure, we can always argue that a celebrities image is likely sold to the companies managing them -- and I would have to agree. Legally, sure, his image likely isn't his own property, but I don't have to agree with the methodology on an ethical level, and I have a real hard time imaging that I ever will.

>Do you think the same documentary would be better if it didn’t have advertising or box-office showings?

Yes. I am less against the manipulated and possibly perjured conjuration of fake dead-people's voices when someone isn't making a profit.

(I detected a bit of snark in your question, so I replied with a bit of snark -- but it's an honest answer. Apologies if you didn't mean for it to be interpreted that way -- another incongruity in text-based-talk :) )

Just one example of the prickliness of this with the for-profit aspect in scope : an AI generated likeness of a famous voice says "Eat Snickers!" , after the family of the original voice gives all the permissions in the world to whoever may want to use it.

Tons of royalties are accrued.

Who is given the royalties?

so, tl;dr, here's the point I feel most strongly about : An unaware person watching this documentary would come out of the theater with the notion that Bourdain said things that he never said, in a way that he perhaps never would have said them. This technology, along with others like it, creates a situation in which a third party can manipulate the persona of a long-dead person in a first-person way, thus circumventing a lot of the trust checks that exist with regards to the perceived image of the now-dead.

I don't think this particular example is damaging, even if I think it's unethical -- however I do think that it's an indicator of things to come, and I believe that it is going to be heavily abused until some regulatory body makes lots of rules and regulations regarding the depiction of image of those that are no longer able to fight their own libel cases.

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#182
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk if historical is based on time. I think intention is more important. if you recreate the Beatles purely for profit then it seems unethical and disrespectful. if you want to keep someone's voice for record keeping or something educational that seems different

Why do people in this thread seem so focused on profit? Everything has a need to make money or do you all work for free? Why is trying to make money on some hopefully valuable art you’ve produced bad?

>Why is trying to make money on some hopefully valuable art you’ve produced bad?

Most direct and honest answer I can give you :

It's (considered by many) unethical to profit from human death and suffering.

It's (considered by many) extra unethical to assume you can speak for the dead.

It's (considered by many) extra-extra unethical to try to hood-wink an audience into thinking that your Mechanical Turk is the real-deal.

This particular 'valuable art' we're discussing has flavors from all three of those types of behavior.

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#183
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's not his widow, she's his estranged ex-wife. I should hope people's ex-wives don't get authority over their lives later (unless it's related to kids/shared-assets/etc). The family giving consent is way more relevant.

> She's not his widow, she's his estranged ex-wife. That's incorrect. They were still married when he died and most of Bourdain's estate was left to their daughter with Ottavia overseeing it. "The family," in this case, is Ottavia and Ariadne Bourdain. https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/07/06/anthon...

From TFA:

> estranged wife Ottavia Busia-Bourdain

He left her in charge of the trust/etc because she's still the mother of his child, and therefore a major part of his life, but they weren't together.

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#184
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She's not his widow, she's his estranged ex-wife. That's incorrect. They were still married when he died and most of Bourdain's estate was left to their daughter with Ottavia overseeing it. "The family," in this case, is Ottavia and Ariadne Bourdain. https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/07/06/anthon...

From TFA: > estranged wife Ottavia Busia-Bourdain He left her in charge of the trust/etc because she's still the mother of his child, and therefore a major part of his life, but they weren't together.

Fine. Estranged widow. The point is if anyone has control of his legacy, it's her, and the director claims to have consulted his widow which couldn't really be anyone other than her, which means one of them is lying about giving the go ahead to do the deepfake voiceover.

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#185

This recently got worse, they claimed to have the OK from his widow. Turns out not so much ... https://twitter.com/OttaviaBourdain/status/14158894550057164...

They really need a way for someone to trademark their voice.

It should be covered under "right to publicity" laws [0]. TFA touched on this. These are the laws that prevent people from capitalizing on celebrities' names or likenesses without permission. This is applied even if the person is dead. Impressions of a person's voice generated from actual recordings of the voice is new ground, but it reasonably falls under "likeness."

There are two noteworthy limitations here:

1. The laws require a plaintiff to sue. If Bourdain left control of his public likeness to someone (like a family member or agent), they would have standing. I have no idea if anyone receives them by default if he died without explicitly granting them.

2. You don't need permission for using a person's name or likeness in relevant news or commentary. So this documentary might be protected.

IANAL, so if anyone knows relevant case law, please share.

And, of course, these are just the laws we have now. Whether we need new laws is iffy to me. I can just dislike this documentary using a generated voice because it's deceptive. Bourdain never recorded those words, but people watching the documentary could easily believe otherwise. It's not like TFA's example of a Civil War soldier reading a letter. I know he died before quality voice recording. And many documentaries label readings of modern documents with "Dramatic reading by actor" or similar.

[0] https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/using-name-or-likeness-anot...

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a machine with two GPUs and a frozen OS with a tensorflow python app that clones voices, and I'd say the quality passes if you run it through a phone bandpass filter. I've had an idea to use propellerhead recycle to chop the output cloned voice into syllables, and then "play" the chopped parts in rhythm, through autotune. The issue is you get Eifel 65 sounding autotune if your base vocals are monotonic or way…

How much time of audio or data do you need on average to train up something? I guess I'm wondering if I only had a few minutes of someone speaking, would that be enough?

The implementation i am using works best with several <30 second clips. I've tested it by cutting up 20 minute interviews to only have the person i care about, and it seems to be about the same as a half dozen 15 second clips.

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#187
post #69
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should message @echelon on HN. ;) https://vo.codes/

Oh hi! I've had a new version of this in the works for a few months. It'll launch maybe this weekend? It supports user-trained data sets, which should be pretty neat. Your approach sounds kind of like unit selection or vocaloid. Do it!! :)

Your gilbert gottfried is better than mine - in that it's more obviously gilbert, however, when he's doing interviews and not "in character" the one i have sounds closer to his actual voice.[0][1]

I use(d) "Real time voice cloning" available on github. I have used your site before, i think that's actually the reason i wanted to find software to do it myself originally!

I ended up using mine to do the announcements on all of the ham repeaters in Central Louisiana. I'm not sure how many are still active, but i had a couple of podcasters and two presidents doing the announcements for a while.[2]

Nice work, wrapping it all in a website/service. I'll bookmark it!

[0] https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/gottfried1-1

[1] https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/gilbertopiatecookies

[2] https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/trump-id-01

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#189

I don't get why this is controversial. Documentaries constantly have someone reading a written document while imitating the voice of the author, and none of them come out and say "This is not the actual voice of Abraham Lincoln". Why is having a computer imitate someone's voice different from having a person do it?

Because Lincoln has been dead for 172 years, and lived before audio recording, so no one who could fog a mirror would think that it was his voice. Bourdain didn't die that long ago, and made many recordings. It certainly is confusing.

Is the issue, imitation without consent or that viewers are not informed correctly?

I thought that given is ex-wife had not said okay and given Bourdain's past actions he may not have agreed with something like this using this technique was a poor choice, not necessarily that viewers are shown generated instead of recorded content

Re: Voice clone of Anthony Bourdain prompts synthetic media ethics questions

#190
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did you get a copyright on your likeness? Your likeness might not be unique or unique enough for others to identify a distinct you. 1,000 Elvis' likenesses disagree.

You get a copyright automatically on anything you write... why not on your likeness (insofar as it specifically refers to you)? The 1,000 Elvises are part of the problem: although Elvis chose to be an extremely public figure, I'm not sure he would want his likeness to essentially be a cartoon character for Vegas weddings and the like. I would say that a person's likeness should be off-limits to everyone, unless speci…

How do you deal with twins or similiar likeness between parent/child?
Post reply on HN