Consciousness and the Laws of Physics • Hacker News Board

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#31

Post by throwanem » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #12

skohan wrote: post #7

This paper reminds me of one of the "wow" moments I had when first studying neuroscience: a professor passed on the realization that everything in the universe we can observe and understand must have a neurobiological representation. Reality as we experience it is in fact always represented in brain activity.

But is there infinite regress -- does it have a representation of itself representing itself. I find a more prosaic version of this question quite interesting too. If you can feel a touch/heat anywhere on or in your body its represented in the brain somehow, somewhere. For a moment (i) imagine the brain is sensitive to touch (it isn't because lack of 'pain' receptors) (ii) that the representation of a sensitive part…

I mean, the brain isn't sensitive to touch because it doesn't contain the kind of mechanoreceptors that our nervous system uses to detect that kind of stimulus, which seems like a perfectly sufficient explanation here.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#32

Post by fancydoorknock » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

EMM_386 wrote: post #24

lbrandy wrote: post #6

Here's my attempt at a tldr. 1. The laws of physics at the time scales, space scales, and energies of the human brain are "known" and we have deep reasons to believe that more will not be discovered. He spends a great deal of space explaining and arguing that the credence that physics is "complete" in this regime should be very, very high. 2. Given the current laws of physics, there is no place or room for non-physic…

How does free will play into this? If the world is run by all physical laws, then I had no choice typing this out and submitting it, rather then closing the tab right now. My "decision" isn't real. If it is an actual conscious choice, that was not calculatable by the exact state prior, then consciousness is fundamental.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-pVZiRjac

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#33

Post by hsn915 » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

foxes wrote: post #5

If I understand it, they seem to be advocating for some sort of dualism. However consider a cpu, it runs on known physical perspectives. But imaging trying to reverse engineer by examining what happens inside an operating system/program running on it. You can get quite interesting emergent behaviour from a relatively simple system (a processor). So just because physics seems relatively simple, I don't think that has…

The things that happen when a program execute are all emergent behavior, but it's behavior that is well understood and we know everything about how it emerges.

It's all just that, a "behavior". Things that move. Signals propagate across wires. Pixels light up. All the is well understood.

Consciousness is nothing like that.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#34

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

lbrandy wrote: post #10

foxes wrote: post #5

If I understand it, they seem to be advocating for some sort of dualism. However consider a cpu, it runs on known physical perspectives. But imaging trying to reverse engineer by examining what happens inside an operating system/program running on it. You can get quite interesting emergent behaviour from a relatively simple system (a processor). So just because physics seems relatively simple, I don't think that has…

> they seem to be advocating for some sort of dualism. This paper is doing the opposite. It's arguing that other papers/ideas advocating dualism are going the wrong way and purely physicalist explanations are the best path forward.

Purely materialist explanations, you mean? Platonic dualism, as advocated by folks like Max Tegmark, isn't non-physicalist. And it needn't be dualist even — if the world is made of math and the materials emerge by implication.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#35

Post by dukeofdoom » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

Chris Langan (IQ of 195) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Langan

"Chris Langan is a fellow of the International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID), a body that actually promotes ‘Intelligent Design’ (ID). His God is the god who created the world and his ‘proof’ is that the universe behaves like a mind, therefore this must be the mind of a god.

Langan may be reputedly the most intelligent man in the United States"

Source: https://www.quora.com/What-is-God-according-to-Chris-Langan-...

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#36

Post by skohan » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #25

skohan wrote: post #7

This paper reminds me of one of the "wow" moments I had when first studying neuroscience: a professor passed on the realization that everything in the universe we can observe and understand must have a neurobiological representation. Reality as we experience it is in fact always represented in brain activity.

In the tv-series Big Bang Theory, there is a moment where Sheldon (a theoretical physicist) and Amy (a neuroscientist) argue, whose discipline is more important and fundamental. Sheldon says that physics studies the fundamental building blocks of the universe. And just like your professor, Amy says something along the lines that neuroscience studies the processes that study the fundamental building blocks of the univ…

I really hate that show, but along those lines I have sometimes wondered if when we are studying theoretical mathematics, are we actually discovering principals about how the universe works, or are we really mapping principals of how the brain processes information without realizing it.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#37

Post by vermilingua » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #16

Personally, it amazes me how many people find it difficult to believe or accept, that human consciousness would just be an emergent property of how neural cells function and are connected together. That all of human consciousness would reside on a higher level than the laws of molecular physics and chemistry. That consciousness emerges from the level of cell biology. No need to postulate anything supernatural, or any…

This solution isn’t ignored because it’s boring, but because it isn’t rigorous enough. If consciousness just is an emergent property of the function of neural cells, define function, define neural cells? What is the lowest level of complexity of each that allows consciousness? Why only neural cells, that is if it is only neural cells at all?

By the anthropic principle it is a given that consciousness arises from the function of neural cells, but that isn’t a satisfying answer because it doesn’t actually answer anything.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#38

Post by hall0ween » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #35

Chris Langan (IQ of 195) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Langan "Chris Langan is a fellow of the International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID), a body that actually promotes ‘Intelligent Design’ (ID). His God is the god who created the world and his ‘proof’ is that the universe behaves like a mind, therefore this must be the mind of a god. Langan may be reputedly the most intelligent…

IQ has never been linked to intelligence, considered there is no agreed upon definition for intelligence.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#39

Post by hsn915 » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

EMM_386 wrote: post #24

lbrandy wrote: post #6

Here's my attempt at a tldr. 1. The laws of physics at the time scales, space scales, and energies of the human brain are "known" and we have deep reasons to believe that more will not be discovered. He spends a great deal of space explaining and arguing that the credence that physics is "complete" in this regime should be very, very high. 2. Given the current laws of physics, there is no place or room for non-physic…

How does free will play into this? If the world is run by all physical laws, then I had no choice typing this out and submitting it, rather then closing the tab right now. My "decision" isn't real. If it is an actual conscious choice, that was not calculatable by the exact state prior, then consciousness is fundamental.

You had the choice because all the processes that determine your actions happened in your brain, which is a part of you: you are not a puppet controlled from outside.

What is your conception of free will? Is it just "randomness"?

If your actions are not determined by your thoughts and desires .. then they would just be completely random. How is that "free" will?

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#40

Post by Arun2009 » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

One of the things I want to do before I die is to acquire an authentic knowledge of classical Indian philosophy (particularly the monistic idealistic strands of thought in it) and the modern scientific account of reality, and evaluate for myself how their claims fare against that of the other.

I don't understand why more Indians and particularly Hindus are not doing this. This looks to me like a thrilling intellectual and even spiritual adventure, and one of the few things that are truly worth doing in life.