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How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

quantamagazine.org

281–290 of 359 posts

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#281

The mileage of others may vary, but it has been my experience that there is no cogent solid proof of uncountability that can withstand concerted critique.[0] Being charitable one might argue that the meanings of terminology had been lost in translation over time and that perhaps Cantor was trying to create non-standard analysis, but then the diagonal argument seems to represent nothing more than the truism that finit…

Hi, Lawvere pummelled your position into the ground a while ago: http://tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/15/tr15.pdf Your critique involves repeatedly crossing the boundary between the inside and outside of the system in question; Lawvere works entirely inside the system, and shows that the paradoxes of self-reference arise from our interpretations. https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0305282v1 explains with many examples. Hi…

Lawvere's paper appears to suggest that if I refute one diagonal argument then I refute them all. Would you consider that to be an accurate description?

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#282

Man there's a lot of juicy stuff in this article (Woodin's Ultimate L program gets briefly alluded to at the end of the article). I just want to point out, because the HN crowd seems to generally not be mathematical Platonists, that this entire article is implicitly assuming a Platonist philosophical foundation. This may cause confusion for lay readers who are not mathematical Platonists. In other words the article a…

Indeed! And in fact, there are set theorists who argue that the traditional dream solution to the continuum hypothesis, adopting new axioms, is doomed to fail, and that we should instead embrace all models of set theory, all possible universes of mathematics.

I tried to write an introduction to this "set-theoretic multiverse philosophy" which is accessible to the HN crowd here:

https://iblech.gitlab.io/bb/multiverse.html

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've verified that the Collatz conjecture holds for all numbers up to ~2^68, but that's precisely 0% of all the numbers that need to be checked. But more importantly, the goal of (pure) mathematics isn't to declare truths. If you had a machine from God himself that outputted True or False for theorems you put in, that wouldn't demotivate (pure) mathematicians from doing the work they're doing. Understanding the re…

> They've verified that the Collatz conjecture holds for all numbers up to ~2^68, but that's precisely 0% of all the numbers that need to be checked. This is the crux of what has me looking like a fool to every mathematician in the thread, but I don't mind: why is 2^68 0% of the "numbers that need to be checked"? From a physicist standpoint, you can do a lot with numbers from 0 to 2^68. After all, 64-bit floats are q…

> why is 2^68 0% of the "numbers that need to be checked"?

The vast majority of natural numbers are larger than 2^68. Only 2^68 of them are less than 2^68, but infinitely many of them are greater.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this entire article is implicitly assuming a Platonist philosophical foundation Is mathematical platonism still significant position between mathematicians? I thought it is outdated since Lobachevsky.

Note that a view can be a majority position even if it is extremely outdated. This often happens when the outdated position is much easier to explain than the more nuanced alternatives. E.g. when surveyed, evangelical preachers often endorse Arianism, despite it being considered outdated since 325AD.

Even though I'm personally not much of a realist, I feel like it's worth explaining why it's so popular when studying foundations of mathematics, because outdated is selling it short and it's actually a fairly nuanced position. The basic question is are mathematicians fundamentally discovering mathematics (Platonism) or creating mathematics (non-Platonism)?

The first step is that it seems like natural numbers are "real" and "tangible" in some sense. So for example, even though we can have modular arithmetic that would say maybe 2 + 5 = 2 under addition mod 5, it clearly feels "artificial" compared to 2 + 5 = 7. More concretely there seems to be some universal idea that seems to underly the fact that if you have three stones and add another stone you get four stones, or if you have three bottles and add another bottle you get four bottles. "three", "one", and "four" might not exist in the same as "bottle" or "stone" exist, but clearly they seem to exist and are "true" in some sense (it is clearly incorrect to say if you have three bottles and add another bottle you still have three bottles).

Indeed, to even talk about mathematics it seems like you need some intuitive grasp of natural numbers that precedes mathematical axioms, or at least be able to understand at a deep level that if you have n things and you add another thing, then you have n + 1 things, and that any axioms that violate this are more "artificial" than axioms which don't violate this. More generally, if you have axioms that create results which violate the rules of "normal" natural numbers, it seems reasonable to say that those axioms are "artificial" and not "real" in some sense. And so one interpretation of mathematicians' jobs, at least when tightly scoped to natural numbers, is to find those axioms of the natural numbers that reflect our natural numbers really work in "our universe" as opposed to a hypothetical other universe. And that approach seems to presuppose that natural numbers exist, at least in our universe, in some objective some that we are "discovering" with our axioms, rather than "creating" ex nihilo.

Indeed being able to say the term "normal natural numbers" and have even lay, non-mathematicians understand what that means (as opposed to "weird natural numbers" such as modular arithmetic) seems to suggest a certain objectiveness to the natural numbers.

Or to put it another way, the abstract notion of "counting" seems to exist objectively and outside of our formal mathematics theories, and our formal theory of natural number is really trying to describe "counting" rather than create the notion of "counting" from scratch.

Now if you accept that "counting" as an abstract idea exists in some sense that makes it possible to say either "yes that is an accurate description of counting" or "no that is not an accurate description of counting," then Godel's incompleteness theorems become quite interesting, namely that every useful theory of the natural numbers will have additional axioms that are independent of the ones already included in that theory. The non-realist looks at the incompleteness theorems and says, "Well yeah those new axioms just create different 'natural numbers' no biggie." The realist says, "That seems totally at odds with the fact that even though hypothetically you could have multiple notions of 'natural number,' there is only one notion of 'natural number' that holds true in our current universe and agrees with our similarly abstract notion of 'counting' and not a hypothetical other universe!"

And if you accept that for the natural numbers... well a lot of things have ramifications for the natural numbers. One classic example, as mentioned elsewhere in this HN discussion, is the busy beaver function, a function whose input is the number of instructions in a given Turing machine and whose output is the maximum number of steps the machine could possibly take for any input before it must be non-terminating on that input (basically an end run around the halting problem).

Any set of axioms (including ZFC) that includes the notion of arithmetic makes a statement on what it think a finite number of busy beaver values are (and only a finite number, again the halting problem prevents us from knowing more). And yet it seems like every value of the busy beaver function has some objective truth value in our universe! I can just run the Turing machine and find out! And that seems like an objective yardstick that we can use to determine whether a given axiom system is "true" or not in our universe (granted it's not one of very much utility because you are waiting to see if a machine runs forever, but still something that seems to have obvious physical ramifications).

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#285
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn’t this what the busy beaver numbers are? Numbers that we cannot write for arbitrary n but they do exist?

Do they exist? I thought there was an independence theorem for the specific values of almost all busy beaver numbers.

Yes they are independent of ZFC but they still exist. From the original article talking about CH which is also independent:

> This independence is sometimes interpreted to mean that these questions have no answer, but most set theorists see that as a profound misconception. They believe the continuum has a precise size; we just need new tools of logic to figure out what that is. These tools will come in the form of new axioms.

I believe the same applies for BBs. They have precise values outside of ZFC but we still cannot ever know them because they are incomputable (??)

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Continuum Hypothesis and its negation are both proven to be consistent with ZFC (this is what the article is talking about RE forcing and Godel's proof of the consistency of CH). There is no contradiction to assume one or the other alongside ZFC. The article is really talking about Platonic truth when it talks about something being true or false. > Individually, or independently, axioms have no truth value. Indee…

Isn't that what an axiom is though? Something you have to define as true? The way you've described it, Platonism makes no sense. Maybe there's a missing part of the explanation...

bonoboTP gives a nice high-level description, I give a slightly more ranty description here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857728.

Basically it seems like no matter what axioms you have, there's a bright line as to whether they accurately describe the natural numbers as we observe them in our universe, as that has physical ramifications. That bright line seems like "whether these axioms are true in our universe" and that seems to lend an objective standard by which we can measure our axioms.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#287
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at the same time there is no "right answer"—all of these axioms, after all, are independent of ZFC, and it's "ok" to add any of them. Minor quible: Just because a potential axiom is independent of ZF(C) doesn't make it necessarily "okay" to add. Potential axioms can be unsound, for example if they prove new / untrue Sigma_1 statements. As an example, even in the likely circumstance that ¬Con(ZFC) is independent…

> he resulting system is unsound (in the sense of Tarski) because it asserts the existence of natural numbers that have no "written form" (i.e. the existance of natural numbers that are larger than any term you can write to denote a natural number). Isn't that basically the definition of the natural numbers, ie. if you write down any natural number (say n) I can always construct a natural number that is larger than i…

I don’t believe a consequence of the axioms discussed is that there exist natural numbers with no “written form.” Do you have a proof or citation?

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this entire article is implicitly assuming a Platonist philosophical foundation Is mathematical platonism still significant position between mathematicians? I thought it is outdated since Lobachevsky.

I thought it was outdated since Epimenides. It requires the axiom of the excluded middle, which is about as false as axioms can possibly be, on account of having concrete counterexamples. (eg "This proposition is false.")

Intuitionistic logic, which is what you get from not assuming lem, still reaches a contradiction if you permit that as a valid proposition. So, doing away with LEM isn’t sufficient. You could use a logic that explicitly has more values though.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they exist? I thought there was an independence theorem for the specific values of almost all busy beaver numbers.

They exist in that it is easy to prove "for ALL x there EXISTS y such that (there EXISTS a Turing machine with at most x states M such that (there EXISTS some n such that M prints y 1's and halts after n steps) AND (for ALL Turing machines with at most x states M, if (there EXISTS some n such that M halts after n steps) then (M prints no more than y 1's after n steps))". I expect you can prove this in systems as weak…

> It is true though that various (decidable) proof systems are unable to prove that the Busy Beaver function has any specific value beyond a certain point.

Isn't the result stronger than that though? The value of BB(30) might be X. Or it might be Y. Neither value would cause any problems.

Thus, "the value" doesn't exist. There is no value that is the value of BB(30).

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#290
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they exist? I thought there was an independence theorem for the specific values of almost all busy beaver numbers.

Yes they are independent of ZFC but they still exist. From the original article talking about CH which is also independent: > This independence is sometimes interpreted to mean that these questions have no answer, but most set theorists see that as a profound misconception. They believe the continuum has a precise size; we just need new tools of logic to figure out what that is. These tools will come in the form of n…

> but we still cannot ever know them because they are incomputable (??)

That doesn't mean you can't know them. We know BB(2). It means there is no single algorithm which is capable of yielding them all. But there could, theoretically, be an algorithm for BB(10), a different algorithm for BB(11), etc.

In fact, those individualized algorithms don't exist either.

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