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The case for banning non-competes

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51–60 of 338 posts

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#51
post #23

There are two kinds of non-competes, and both have problems. First, there's the really nasty ones saying "If you ever work here, you can't work for any competitor for X years", and they're clearly abusing of employees, labor, etc. I hope there is a straight up ban on that. The second kind is "You can't compete with us while you work here". And that is a much more complex beast. Obviously, if I work as a developer mak…

> We do ML, you can't do ML outside of work (I asked legal that one).

Keep in mind the legal department represents your company, not you. They will tell you the interpretation of the non-compete most favorable to their client. It doesn’t mean it is correct or even enforceable.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#52
post #23

There are two kinds of non-competes, and both have problems. First, there's the really nasty ones saying "If you ever work here, you can't work for any competitor for X years", and they're clearly abusing of employees, labor, etc. I hope there is a straight up ban on that. The second kind is "You can't compete with us while you work here". And that is a much more complex beast. Obviously, if I work as a developer mak…

> Obviously, if I work as a developer making a stock trading app, I shouldn't be making a competing stock trading app after hours. Why is that obvious? If I work as a studio musician can I also be working on my own album after hours?

If you're using melodies and samples from work hours, then maybe not. And it would be tough to argue that your at-home trading app code is completely uninfluenced by ideas you have at work.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#53
post #23

There are two kinds of non-competes, and both have problems. First, there's the really nasty ones saying "If you ever work here, you can't work for any competitor for X years", and they're clearly abusing of employees, labor, etc. I hope there is a straight up ban on that. The second kind is "You can't compete with us while you work here". And that is a much more complex beast. Obviously, if I work as a developer mak…

> "do you have a github account?". No, I've been highly motivated not to.

That is a shame, and given the extent to which most businesses and groups are built on Open Source, the fact that your situation is not in any way unique (to your employer or at large) is what makes it IMHO much worse.

I ran into technical limitations with my testing framework at one point where I realized that it was going to make my work 10x more complicated if I couldn't simply take some of the common libraries that I had factored out of my apps, and make them public.

You know what I'm saying, the CI machine can't run without a machine account if "bundle install" requires a valid SSH account. Getting the SSH account inside of a Docker container was an exercise of Rube Goldberg proportions, I eventually did it, but doubt strongly I would have ever been able to get anyone else to understand how or why that solution worked.

So I did the rational thing and published a few libraries to simplify the stack. 6 months later, we received a message from the head of InfoSec who was "very disappointed" after looking at our GitHub account.

Nobody competes with us. There was no risk of helping the competition. We're not in the business of software development (though we had an entire department of folks whose job title was Application Developer, so figure that one out...)

Their concern wasn't that it was against an NDA or that we hadn't gotten it approved, it was that threat-actors will take any signal they can about our internal stuff and turn it into an attack vector. Given what specifically it was that we had published, this was beyond irrational. I told them "it's 2020 and this is a backwards position to be holding in 2020." Shine a light, get more eyes on it.

There is no danger and I'm glad that someone looked at my code, I said, even if only for a few minutes – which I know would not have happened at all if we kept the repo internal.

Yeah, I don't work there anymore (not specifically because of this incident, but it was a contributing factor to me leaving voluntarily, without a doubt.)

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously, if I work as a developer making a stock trading app, I shouldn't be making a competing stock trading app after hours. Why is that obvious? If I work as a studio musician can I also be working on my own album after hours?

If you're using melodies and samples from work hours, then maybe not. And it would be tough to argue that your at-home trading app code is completely uninfluenced by ideas you have at work.

True, but you can’t use the studio’s IP regardless of whether you work for the studio.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#56
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a new career, start an unrelated company, do non profit work, do research, etc... I imagine these people have money, so what's making potentially an extra 200k? You make that in a year.

You live in a serious bubble if you think the typical person can shrug, say "what's $200K," and casually leave or take a break from the field they've been earning a living in.

We are talking about people who's company actually used the non compete.

These are not typical people.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously, if I work as a developer making a stock trading app, I shouldn't be making a competing stock trading app after hours. Why is that obvious? If I work as a studio musician can I also be working on my own album after hours?

If you're using melodies and samples from work hours, then maybe not. And it would be tough to argue that your at-home trading app code is completely uninfluenced by ideas you have at work.

> If you're using melodies and samples from work hours, then maybe not.

That would not be a question of competition, but of IP theft.

> And it would be tough to argue that your at-home trading app code is completely uninfluenced by ideas you have at work.

How is that of any relevance? I can have ideas about a better way to wipe my ass at work, is my novel ass-wiping implement competing with the company?

And even if it were, mere competition should not be enough for NCCs to trigger. NCCs should be about unfair advantage owing to the exploitation of sensitive or confidential information.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#58

I lived in Alabama for 4 years or so and at least at the time (I have no idea if it's changed since I left), their non-compete situation was garbage. They were valid and enforceable even if you got laid off or fired. One of my friends' mother got laid off in the 2008 financial crisis from Bellsouth (or AT&T, I don't recall if the (re)merger was finished yet). She was told she couldn't work for any other telecom in th…

Non-competes undermine one of the main ideas underpinning capitalism: the free flow of labor. Otherwise, you're just a damned serf.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#59
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people might think that was a good deal to travel the world but not everyone. So you're at the peak of your career and you need to take a couple years off at significantly lower total comp (because no bonus/equity).

This would mean that you can then also work in a related but not competing industry at the same time. It's not a no-work afterwords contract, but don't compete with us. that won't affect your total compensation then, or your career trajectory usually either. The idea is that a non-compete should only be used for someone it will actually matter to the business the, and not all the low level employees that don't have a…

> This would mean that you can then also work in a related but not competing industry at the same time.

If they're going to do it at all, and limit cruelty in the equation as much as possible, it should be very limited to directly comparable and competing products (Windows vs MacOS; Google Search vs Bing; consumer desktop operating systems and consumer search as narrow categories), rather than the industry broadly. Most people have a narrow labor specialization and spend their work years building up expertise and reputation in an industry. Any denial of work potential and opportunity that targets an entire industry is akin to labor cruelty and should be viewed as a human rights violation.

Re: The case for banning non-competes

#60
post #23

There are two kinds of non-competes, and both have problems. First, there's the really nasty ones saying "If you ever work here, you can't work for any competitor for X years", and they're clearly abusing of employees, labor, etc. I hope there is a straight up ban on that. The second kind is "You can't compete with us while you work here". And that is a much more complex beast. Obviously, if I work as a developer mak…

> We do ML, you can't do ML outside of work (I asked legal that one). Keep in mind the legal department represents your company , not you. They will tell you the interpretation of the non-compete most favorable to their client. It doesn’t mean it is correct or even enforceable.

Problematically though, in most of the US ridiculously broad NCCs are enforceable. The only place where you're safe is California, where the only way for an NCC to stick is related to business (co)-ownership (selling the business, dissolving a partnership, or dissolving an LLC). Out-of-state NCCs are also un-enforceable in California.
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