Live data from Hacker News

Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

universetoday.com

41–50 of 327 posts

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As other commenters have said, we can't take our own viewpoint as an example of what kinds of civilizations survive because our technological age is so young. But IMO Dark Forest is bunk anyway, because it assumes that projecting power over interstellar distances is easier than defending yourself. That's not true within terrestrial history ... even though the arrival of colonists was massively disruptive to populatio…

>because it assumes that projecting power over interstellar distances is easier than defending yourself This seems really obviously true to me. Accelerating a rock to relativistic speeds is pretty easy, defending against a rock potentially coming from anywhere in space traveling at relativistic speeds is extremely difficult.

IANAAstrophysicist but it seems like targeting that rock gets proportionally hard with the speed and distance. Throwing a dart and hitting an ant on the other side of the world, etc.

And the other side of that equation is: does the species who can do that have anything to fear from us? Or does the same technology make them likely able to stay ahead on defense, making it uninteresting to destroy us?

Three Body Problem introduces all this dimension folding tech that makes being the first to strike totally dominate. But the closest equivalent on Earth hasn't (yet) led to nuclear holocaust, because preventing others from getting the tech and establishing mutual detente with those who do has been better for each actor.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#42
The Dark Forest makes so many (explicit and implicit) assumptions it starts to feel extremely dodgy. There are also falacious arguments embedded within it which fail to imagine numerous possible scenarios simply by following "tried and true" paths copy-pasted from sci-fi novels.

TLDR: The forest analogy fails because civilizations are not singular entities (like animals are) but rather complex structures which can merge and evolve. The supposed technological and societal barriers can very well not materialize in which case the theory falls apart.

Details below...

> Suppose a vast number of civilizations distributed throughout the universe, on the order of the number of observable stars. Lots and lots of them.

"On the order of observable stars" is extremely wide. Perhaps there is one life-bearing planet per galaxy. Perhaps there is one per 100 stars. Those are vastly different outcomes.

> Survival is the primary need of civilizations.

On individual level humans have no hope to "survive" (i.e. live immortal lives). Yet despite that fact we don't commit mass suicide. The "primary need" of human civilization to survive is merely emergent behaviour due to other factors. Perhaps advanced civilizations would be happy to achieve some grand undertaking and then perish.

Now for the second "axiom":

> Civilizations continuously grow and expand ...

Expansionist civilizations with unlimited space certainly can do that. But does it really bring any benefits? The more complex the societal structure, the harder it is to change. Perhaps there is a critical mass above which it becomes detrimental to multiply beyond and all "sane" civilizations will stay below it.

> ... , but the total matter in the universe remains constant.

It may be finite, but perhaps most of it will be "stranded" anyway - so far away that access to it becomes non-feasible anyway.

> ... In other words, the finite nature of resources will ultimately pit one civilization against another as they all struggle to sustain their growth.

This part I believe is the biggest logical fallacy of all. What is civilization if not a set of societal structures? And we can easily imagine merging of two such structures - they are already composed of other structures; what is just another level of complexity? If we merge two "competing" civilizations suddenly we have a single larger civilization... supposedly without conflict? The amount of resources is the same as before but not we only have a single contender: the merged civilization.

This paradox stems from the failure to account for the internal race for resources inherent to all civilizations. The civilizations are not unitary entities. Treating them as such and assuming blind dedication to it from its members is short sighted and lacking imagination.

> If open communication exists, then conflict could be averted and tensions diffused. But given the time-lag involved with any attempt at interstellar communications, civilizations that are light-years apart are unlikely to resolve their fears quickly.

Sufficiently advanced civs can simply send AI envoys or do mind upload of their representatives with the speed of light. This makes the learning of language, communication etc. very quick. Perhaps FTL communication can exist too. Etc. etc. Endless ways to break another assumption.

> By the time they arrived, the attacker’s technology would not have matured one bit, while the defender would have decades or centuries to progress.

It may be possible that advanced technology does not progress as fast as it does now. See our experiments with fusion and particle accelerators. What used to be easy now takes years and billions in funding. Perhaps going at some point getting any kind of advancement will be nearly impossible and all technology will become "old". In this scenario the centuries of technological advancement are moot. OTOH potential gains from trade from foreign civs is very real possibility.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The energy requirement to send a life destroying device to a far away planet might be much less than the energy requirement to send colonizers. That may be the big leap so to speak.

If you can send a weapon you can probably send some kind of Von Neumann probe with genetic and cultural data to create a seed colony

I don’t see why that necessarily follows and I don’t see why one would want to send such a probe. It does nothing for me if I can send a probe to start humanity on another planet when I have no connection to said planet and won’t be able to see the result or have a connection to that colony. In the dark forest view one would never seed such a colony as they will quickly become competitors.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#44

I have a theory that intelligence isn't particularly rare however the rate of development may be. It has long been alluded to in Sci-Fi that humanity's rate of development is fast (Humans vs Vulcans, Halo universe, etc). I imagine that one of the great barriers is that a civilisation with a lower rate of development may stuck in an industrial type era unable to progress before doing irreparable damage to their enviro…

To be fair, even with our (fast paced?) rate of development we have a hard time to tech fast enough to outrun the industrial damage.

On the other hand, only total extinction might be truly "irreparable".

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As other commenters have said, we can't take our own viewpoint as an example of what kinds of civilizations survive because our technological age is so young. But IMO Dark Forest is bunk anyway, because it assumes that projecting power over interstellar distances is easier than defending yourself. That's not true within terrestrial history ... even though the arrival of colonists was massively disruptive to populatio…

>because it assumes that projecting power over interstellar distances is easier than defending yourself This seems really obviously true to me. Accelerating a rock to relativistic speeds is pretty easy, defending against a rock potentially coming from anywhere in space traveling at relativistic speeds is extremely difficult.

1) I think you're underestimating the difficulty of accelerating any massive object to relativistic speeds, 2) doing so with enough accuracy to hit a relatively small moving target many light-years away is not exactly trivial, 3) a civilization with the capability to accelerate a massive object to relativistic speeds is probably also capable of building self-sufficient artificial habitats around its star, which is a lot of targets you'd have to take out for complete obliteration.

So in summation, I think defending against an incoming relativistic rock is at least as easy as using relativistic rocks to obliterate a distant civilization.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because it assumes that projecting power over interstellar distances is easier than defending yourself This seems really obviously true to me. Accelerating a rock to relativistic speeds is pretty easy, defending against a rock potentially coming from anywhere in space traveling at relativistic speeds is extremely difficult.

IANAAstrophysicist but it seems like targeting that rock gets proportionally hard with the speed and distance. Throwing a dart and hitting an ant on the other side of the world, etc. And the other side of that equation is: does the species who can do that have anything to fear from us? Or does the same technology make them likely able to stay ahead on defense, making it uninteresting to destroy us? Three Body Problem…

We can already hit tiny (Ed: planet sized) targets at interstellar distances. Planets are relatively speaking quite large targets especially if you’re tossing several rocks.

This stuff doesn’t need sci-fi style new physics, just the kind of infrastructure we could actually build.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAAstrophysicist but it seems like targeting that rock gets proportionally hard with the speed and distance. Throwing a dart and hitting an ant on the other side of the world, etc. And the other side of that equation is: does the species who can do that have anything to fear from us? Or does the same technology make them likely able to stay ahead on defense, making it uninteresting to destroy us? Three Body Problem…

We can already hit tiny (Ed: planet sized) targets at interstellar distances. Planets are relatively speaking quite large targets especially if you’re tossing several rocks. This stuff doesn’t need sci-fi style new physics, just the kind of infrastructure we could actually build.

....we have never hit anything at interstellar distances, which are several orders of magnitude farther than interplanetary distances.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#48
To me the most likely back of the napkin answer to the Fermi paradox is that aliens are elsewhere in time. The Milky Way galaxy is about 100,000 light years across but about 13.5 billion years old. So it’s like 135,000x deeper in the time direction than the distance direction.

We’re in the light cones of all the stars we can see, and as far as we know, we can’t get out of them. If a civilization ended even 100 years earlier than our equivalent “now” in their light cone, we wouldn’t have seen them. And if they became visible even 1 year later than our equivalent “now,” we would not have seen them yet.

We’re proceeding through time at 1 sec per sec and basically if we’re going to see an alien civilization at this point, I think the only way would be if one happens to achieve the necessary technology to be detected while we’re looking at it. If there were existing civilizations that were easy to see, we would have seen them already.

I think it’s far more likely we will confirm alien life first by indirect means, for example spectroscopically detecting free atmospheric oxygen on an exoplanet, or finding tiny fossils on Mars.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#49
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can already hit tiny (Ed: planet sized) targets at interstellar distances. Planets are relatively speaking quite large targets especially if you’re tossing several rocks. This stuff doesn’t need sci-fi style new physics, just the kind of infrastructure we could actually build.

....we have never hit anything at interstellar distances, which are several orders of magnitude farther than interplanetary distances.

I didn’t say we have, just that we can.

The closest Star is ~268,770 AU where voyager 1 is only 152.6 AU. However, being able to target a probe within 50 feet at 150AU, means hitting a planet sized target at 4.25 light years. Building a probe large enough and fast enough to do significant damage at the other side is the hard part, not targeting.

Calculating where a planet sized object would be by the time our probe got there is a different story.

Re: Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” Hypothesis?

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greg Bear's novels Forge of God (1987) and Anvil of Stars (1993) explore the same idea. They feel a little dated now but the first one in particular is still well worth a read imo.

Huh, I can't remember that [apparently fundamental] aspect of those two books. I'm going to see if I still have a copy of Forge of God on the bookshelf when I get home later, thanks. Last time I re-read one of his books (Eon, probably), I was quite bemused by the comically-simplistic 80s-esque Cold War perspective though!

[spoilers]

In the first book the earth is attacked by Von Neumann probes launched preemptively by a civilization that wants to destroy potential agressors before they develop the technology to become a risk. The "benefactor" civilization group organises rescue and counter-assaults as a means of pan-civilisation trust building. The second book looks at the ethics of destroying a civ based on decisions it may have taken in its distant past.

Anvil has something of a young adult style, but the game theory and strategy elements are quite satisfying I think.

Post reply on HN