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People Staring at Computers

kylemcdonald.net

341–349 of 349 posts

Re: People Staring at Computers

#341
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, this is the first time I read about your case. I couldn't help but think of Aaron Swartz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz Basically, he downloaded open access journals from an academic repository. But he did it by physically connecting a laptop to the MIT university network and hiding the device in a servicing space without authorization. Downloading open access papers isn't an issue in and…

Wow, incredible response! I appreciate you taking the time to respond :) I am very familiar with Aaron's case. I think your analysis is correct: some people believe I made a bad judgement call, and the CFAA is broad enough that this created a liability, even though we cannot know whether it was legal. I think my frustration with most armchair-analysis (not including you, CaptArmchair) is that folks confuse their mora…

> When the CFAA is overly broad, and the ability to investigate is granted to all "offenses", where does that leave us?

Good question. The "offenses" are defined in the (a), and here you see the scope of the problem. It's a terse summation that describes what amounts to an offense under the CFAA in very general terms, and therein lies the problem.

(a)(5) for instance is a catch-all:

"Whoever knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;"

Both "damage" as well as "protected" can be broadly interpreted. This leaves definitively asserting the interpretation of those terms in the hands of courts. And that's problematic.

> Can Apple cry "CFAA!" at anything they don't like?

Strictly speaking: Yes. Of course, Apple can only start civil cases under tort law and contract law. Equivalent to anyone, they can notify / inform law enforcement. It's the prerogative of the latter to decide on steps necessary.

Also strictly speaking, prosecution doesn't happen at the behest of an individual plaintiff (e.g. Apple) but at the behest of the state (hence why cases are named United States versus ...).

> In practice, there are some checks and balances: in this case, Judge Lois Bloom decided to sign the warrant; Judge Judith Philips refused to prosecute. Is this enough?

That's the question at heart. The legal branch of government, Congress, has voted and backed the CFAA into law. In doing so, it leaves the interpretations of the CFAA to the judicial branch of government.

How problematic an overly broad law applied to an extremely complex, and rapidly changing technological and societal context can be, is demonstrated by cases like yours and Aaron's.

Having law enforcement knocking on your door, or being outright arrested raise questions about the proportionality with which the state responds to a suspicion, and how that then ripples through and harms individual citizens.

However, the judicial system also allows room for re-interpretation and clarification of laws. Just last month, a case under the CFAA was ruled by SCOTUS curbing the scope of the CFAA: Van Buren vs. United States

> In a six-three decision, the US Supreme Court yesterday ruled in Van Buren v. United States that Federal prosecutors may not go after authorized individuals who access databases for unauthorized purposes under the 1986 Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA), Politico reports. The incident in question in Van Buren v. United States concerned an ex-officer caught searching a license plate database in return for a bribe.

> Though explaining the decision as a product of the law’s language, not its effects, Justice Barrett wrote in the majority ruling, “The Government’s interpretation of the statute would attach criminal penalties to a breathtaking amount of commonplace computer activity" including “using a pseudonym on Facebook.” Justice Thomas in a dissenting opinion observed, “Much of the Federal Code criminalizes common activity," and “discomfort” with that fact “does not give us authority to alter statutes.”

> Technology and advocacy groups like the National Whistleblower Center had raised concerns that the standing interpretation of the law jeopardized free speech and security research in addition to criminalizing trivial terms of service violations. Organizations like the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, on the other hand, worry that narrowing the scope of the CFAA will limit prosecutors’ ability to tackle “insider threats.” A CNN Supreme Court analyst said the ruling will require Governments and companies “to be far more specific in their policies governing access to databases.”

https://thecyberwire.com/newsletters/policy-briefing/3/107

It just goes to show that the discussion about the language of the CFAA is also at loggerheads at the highest judicial court. However, here SCOTUS clearly signals to lower courts that the scope and interpretation of the CFAA actually does have limits.

Both sides do have a valid argument though. On the one hand, in it's current form, the vagueness of the CFAA causes issues when it comes to "freedom of press" rights e.g. investigative journalism, however the CFAA also protects your business as it gives law enforcement the authority to go after ransomware groups.

To my mind, for all its vagueness, the CFAA is a prime example of democracy in action as the innate vagueness is discussed in the public debate (media), as well as in courts (SCOTUS, courts, precedents,...) as well as in Congress. In that regard, I don't think there will ever be a gold standard everyone can and will agree on. It will be more of a continued debate that might yield subsequent rulings and amending bills in the future, as technology and society changes throughout the next decade(s). It's up to us to have that debate.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#342
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody who enters an Apple store is already being recorded by hidden video cameras without their consent. Loss prevention. Unless you think being photographed in addition to being unknowingly video recorded is a grave privacy violation, I don't get your point.

Apple don’t post video montages of their security footage online and ask people to look at the faces of the shoppers and see if they can read some meaning into the lack of emotion on their faces. When you enter an Apple store you are trusting Apple implicitly with your safety and security during your visit. That they might take security video as part of that is a reasonable component of that trust relationship. Being…

Because that's the point. The art is about telling people that they are being recorded. Just that apple won't brodcast there faces doesn't mean no one will see them. Or they are not being recorded

Re: People Staring at Computers

#343
post #298
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such a viscerally gross violation How did you reach this conclusion? Because your entire response hinges on this being true. I highly doubt it is a "violation" in the first place, and certainly not a "gross violation", the courts decided that it was not, as you call it "an amoral and illegal way for him to use people without their consent" (well, maybe amoral, as courts have nothing to say about that).

Parent didn't mean violation of the law, they meant personal violation.

This ^. I am fine with the art. as long as either he asks permision saying that's tge same thing apple is dooing or if not blurring the faces of people when he goes to exbit them later.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple don’t post video montages of their security footage online and ask people to look at the faces of the shoppers and see if they can read some meaning into the lack of emotion on their faces. When you enter an Apple store you are trusting Apple implicitly with your safety and security during your visit. That they might take security video as part of that is a reasonable component of that trust relationship. Being…

Because that's the point. The art is about telling people that they are being recorded. Just that apple won't brodcast there faces doesn't mean no one will see them. Or they are not being recorded

That wasn’t how I read the article. The artist seems fascinated by the way people look emotionless when interacting with computers, not with drawing attention to surveillance mechanisms. He wanted to create a moment of connection between the people in the store and commented mainly on how people ignored one another and kept looking at the computer. I really don’t know where people get the idea the artist’s intent was particularly focused on corporate surveillance.

Of course, death of the artist and all that - if people read it as a piece about surveillance capitalism then that’s what the art is about regardless of what the artist thinks it’s about.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what I don't understand why he can't be a messenger and an actor at the same time. Everything doesn't have to be black and white you know

Then it isn’t shooting the messenger because they’re also an actor? Being a messenger doesn’t grant someone immunity from being critiqued for doing unethical things.

No, it don't. But being an actor doesn't mean an individual can't be an messanger doing something in good faith.

"Dooing good, through bad methods"

Re: People Staring at Computers

#347
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, incredible response! I appreciate you taking the time to respond :) I am very familiar with Aaron's case. I think your analysis is correct: some people believe I made a bad judgement call, and the CFAA is broad enough that this created a liability, even though we cannot know whether it was legal. I think my frustration with most armchair-analysis (not including you, CaptArmchair) is that folks confuse their mora…

> When the CFAA is overly broad, and the ability to investigate is granted to all "offenses", where does that leave us? Good question. The "offenses" are defined in the (a), and here you see the scope of the problem. It's a terse summation that describes what amounts to an offense under the CFAA in very general terms, and therein lies the problem. (a)(5) for instance is a catch-all: "Whoever knowingly causes the tran…

Just want to say thanks again for the great comment. I was following Van Buren, and it was a certainly vindication. I agree with you there is a push and pull. Here's hoping that debate & discussion that needs to happen plays out in a way that puts the people first, instead of expanding protections to the government and big corps.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#348

This reminds me of a random, but chilling, scene in "Minority Report". The protagonist confronts a man he thinks is responsible for killing his child. The man decides to reassure the protagonist by explaining how kind he was to the child, and made sure the child didn't suffer when he killed him. He's presenting it as though this is a legitimate defense for such an obvious violation. The part that sticks with me is th…

You're comparing a guy who took pictures of people in an Apple store to a child murderer? I have difficulty with this analogy.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#349

This reminds me of a random, but chilling, scene in "Minority Report". The protagonist confronts a man he thinks is responsible for killing his child. The man decides to reassure the protagonist by explaining how kind he was to the child, and made sure the child didn't suffer when he killed him. He's presenting it as though this is a legitimate defense for such an obvious violation. The part that sticks with me is th…

Taking selfies in an apple store reminds you of child murder? You consider these things the same, or even similar? Hrm, yeah, based on that I'm not going to consider your opinion very important.

By the fade-out of your comment, it seems your accurate assessment of this individual's bloviation is insufficiently self-important for the HN crowd. This is why I never post here. Worse comments than Slashdot.
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