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My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

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Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#301
post #230

I love that there's a "technology will fix things" model. This assumes we'll discover some magical bullet, that we haven't thought of, that will counteract erosion of topsoil, water shortages, and climate change. Another implicit assumption is that we'll be able to move forward unilaterally with such a solution, instead of it becoming a political football until it's too late to do anything, like climate change. A lot…

I think technology will result in a great outcome for humanity as long as our greed is checked somehow. Most of the problems today are caused by our greed. I’m no MIT scholar nor as educated as most of you here, but from a anecdotal ground level I have seen it really seems some people at various positions from a office manager all the way to the highest political offices are driven by greed. Their greed usually resul…

The problem is defining “greed”.

It feels like when I want more stuff per unit time/effort, I’m just “trying to support my family and build a better life for my children”. But when other people do the same, it’s “greedy”. Is there any definition of “greedy” we could use for the purposes of this discussion that would apply yo all humans equally?

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#302
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think technology will result in a great outcome for humanity as long as our greed is checked somehow. Most of the problems today are caused by our greed. I’m no MIT scholar nor as educated as most of you here, but from a anecdotal ground level I have seen it really seems some people at various positions from a office manager all the way to the highest political offices are driven by greed. Their greed usually resul…

A big part is our greed to procreate, take out 3/4 of humanity and climate change is solved

Well the OP didn't talk about wipe out people, but birth control. That can be enforced in many ways but for sure the best one is education https://blogs.worldbank.org/health/female-education-and-chil...

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#303
Not giving an opinion on the model itself, I do find it interesting how many of these cultural narratives of collapse and Armageddon are almost directly from older religious traditions. Specifically, Christianity in the Western World. The parallels become increasingly obvious if you dig deeper into the theology; everything is present, from climate “sinners” to apocalyptic scenarios in which everything collapses into a ball of fire, unless we repent and change our ways.

Again, not saying that these predictions are wrong or overly inaccurate. But even if many people in the Western world are not “religious” today, they inevitably seem to fall into these same thought patterns. I have noticed that this approach is not shared by many other non-Western countries, who absolutely recognize the dangers facing global society from climate, political polarization, etc. yet lack the “apocalypse” culture points. I worry if Western culture has a self-reinforcing obsession with the collapse narrative, to its own detriment.

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#304

I love that there's a "technology will fix things" model. This assumes we'll discover some magical bullet, that we haven't thought of, that will counteract erosion of topsoil, water shortages, and climate change. Another implicit assumption is that we'll be able to move forward unilaterally with such a solution, instead of it becoming a political football until it's too late to do anything, like climate change. A lot…

it's fundamentally confounding to me that more people don't seem to come to this conclusion. I would love to hear a reasonable argument from someone in this cohort, because I'm willing to accept that my intuition is flawed, and I just can't see how.

OK, I'll do so.

To put it brutally it's because on Hacker News and probably your social circle, there are too many people whose social status and income depends on being clever, or at least the perception of being clever. This leads us to seriously over-index on things that look like science or data analysis, without even being able to see alternatives that in my experience easily occur to the less (over?) educated.

Consider this article. It's actually a good case in point. The article can be summarized like this:

1. In the 1970s there were these modellers who predicted disaster. Lots of very influential and educated people took them uber-seriously and thought the Limits To Growth was proof positive that everything needed to change.

2. The model turned out to be useless and the disaster it predicted never happened, because the numbers it used for natural resource availability were garbage.

3. This major error did not reduce the modellers confidence in what they were doing (this seems to be a common theme with modellers). Instead they just doubled the number of natural resources and kept on going. That sounds rather arbitrary and not like a real fix to me, but alright. The new models indicated that nothing makes much of a difference for decades (until 2020), conveniently making the predictions unfalsifiable on any timeline that the original authors may have cared about.

4. Now a new researcher has published a new paper on these models, which also says nothing useful. We read that the models "aren't terribly enlightening" because we don't have any data past 2020 yet so which scenario we're supposedly in cannot be determined.

5. Despite all the above, the author concludes that "the most important takeaway from these models is that we need to take definitive action".

Wrong! A rational person can conclude nothing from the evidence in the article. Given that we can only judge the models by prior performance, we should anticipate that the models are probably wrong again. Moreover, the model scenarios don't have any probabilities attached to them and are described in sufficiently vague terms that nobody would ever be able to conclude which scenario we actually followed, again, making it an exercise in stargazing, not science.

Therefore, we cannot actually say we've "known for at least 50 years that our current pattern of consumption is not sustainable". We've known no such thing. The conclusions of the article and many of the commenters here seem like motivated reasoning as a consequence - or at least, it's certainly not Bayesian reasoning!

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#305
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth is not just energy consumption. We measure it in dollars, not watts, because energy is just an input. We have ways of optimizing to use less or do more valuable things with it.

Yes, there are ofc different byproducts (knowledge, health, leisure, fulfillment of needs, …) but, at the end of the chain, a dollar spent is ultimately converted into energy/resource consumption, no?

You're right that energy ultimately dissipates as heat, but the important thing is what the energy achieves in between hitting the earth as sunlight and then heading off into space as infrared. If you put a solar panel in place to turn the light into electricity and then use that electricity to write a Python plugin for Flake8 https://github.com/tlocke/flake8-alphabetize then maybe you've contributed something to the economy :-)

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#306
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth is not just energy consumption. We measure it in dollars, not watts, because energy is just an input. We have ways of optimizing to use less or do more valuable things with it.

Yes, there are ofc different byproducts (knowledge, health, leisure, fulfillment of needs, …) but, at the end of the chain, a dollar spent is ultimately converted into energy/resource consumption, no?

I've always seen it more as a measure of human attention. A dollar gives you acces to someone else's time.

Energy and resources are force multipliers for that human, so making more energy available increases what someone can do.

There is also an organisational aspect in there: A better organized group can do more with resources and reach more resources for the same amount of human time. A human's time is more valuable if the human has a more centralized location an an organisation.

I look at psychologists, hookers, priests as people who sell basically their attention for emotional needs. Not much energy or resources in those transactions, but very lucrative. At the other end of the spectrum is the sun, dumping tons of energy on us, mostly worthless until humans organize the power.

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#307
post #280

I love that there's a "technology will fix things" model. This assumes we'll discover some magical bullet, that we haven't thought of, that will counteract erosion of topsoil, water shortages, and climate change. Another implicit assumption is that we'll be able to move forward unilaterally with such a solution, instead of it becoming a political football until it's too late to do anything, like climate change. A lot…

But you're taking the already discovered "magic bullets" for granted...and are essentially acting like the next one is impossible even though they happen on a semi-regular basis. Science is simply an on-going collection of realizations where the latest realization is considered the end-all-be-all...until it isn't. The reason they are considered "magic bullets" is because they involve game-changing shifts in technolog…

It’s reasonable to assume there will be various kinds of game-changing new technologies, but it’s not a given that it will provide usable solutions to the specific problems we need to solve.

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#308
post #254
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't nuclear power the answer to climate change and energy shortage?

We would need to build thousands of nuclear plants, adapting each plant for its location (so you can’t mass-produce a single design), and we don’t have the skilled people to do that. In addition, they will take decades to build, we lack enough fuel for those plants, and we still haven’t solved the disposal problem. Solar panels, batteries, and wind mills are comparatively easy to produce at ridiculous volumes. They’r…

Why do you have to adapt each plant for its location? or just find a suitable location and build a bunch of such plants and transmit the power to where it’s used.

Buildings are also “adapted for each location”, but there is still an entire corpus of standardized techniques to do that that massively reduces costs compared to literally solving the problem from scratch at each site.

And why is it the case that “we don’t have the skilled people to do that”? If people value it, they’ll pay for it- and people can learn new skills in response to market need / pay - there is no predetermined number of “ad-tech software engineers” for example, they were “created” by the people themselves responding to market forces (pay)

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#309

Not giving an opinion on the model itself, I do find it interesting how many of these cultural narratives of collapse and Armageddon are almost directly from older religious traditions. Specifically, Christianity in the Western World. The parallels become increasingly obvious if you dig deeper into the theology; everything is present, from climate “sinners” to apocalyptic scenarios in which everything collapses into…

I think you're right but it's not exclusively a religious issue. Karl Marx was famously obsessed with an apocalyptic end-of-days style vision in which the sinners would be punished and the pure elevated above. At the same time he wasn't a big fan of (other) religions.

Re: My take on the study from MIT that predicts “societal collapse”

#310
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if in October 2019 someone said a virus outbreak that could be largely prevented would be lead cause of over 100k deaths over climate change, you would be laughed at. Firstly, why would someone laugh? Pandemics with a 100k death toll are a fairly regular occurrence, even in modern society. OTOH if you said 1M + most of the world under some form of home quarantine, lockdown or travel restrictions for well over a yea…

> Firstly, why would someone laugh? Well, we see people and even political groups laughing at the idea of a virus outbreak that kills 100k even today, isn't it? Now picture it without the benefit of hindsight. Why did western society failed so hard at containing the virus when countries like South Korea were already leading by example at the start of Q1 2020.

A few people, sure, but for the most part what I've seen people attacking is the idea that the Covid pandemic is some kind of unique crisis that demands an aggressive response.

Also, South Korea has very much not contained Covid. They've relied on fairly strict social distancing measures to stop cases outright going exponential, but those cases are still there and all indications are that an increasing proportion of infections have been going undetected since the start of the pandemic. (There's no way of knowing the exact number because they don't seem to have any program to measure the actual infection rate, unlike some other countries, and their level of testing is frankly pretty poor compared to the western world these days.) Those measures are also no longer sufficient, with cases reaching new record highs most days for the last week or so.

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