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Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

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Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#541
post #366

I dislike being tracked as much as the next guy, but I often wonder what "our" ideal end-game goal is? By "our" I mean the typical HN crowd that understands both the technological and the economical implications of this. If we want top-grade products to remain available without a direct monetary transaction (i.e "free"), it seems we must give something that the product providers can turn into monetary value indirectl…

I think people have shown to be willing to give direct payment. Twitch subscriptions, Patreon, Kickstarter, even OnlyFans. People will invest in the people and the projects they like. I don't want anything that's advertising supported. Anything. There is no media I want to consume so badly that I'll tolerate ads to watch it. There's no product so interesting I'll view ads to use it. No website contains information I…

On the one hand I want something like a "Donation Feed" similar to an RSS feed.

Something that I can put money into, set rules for, and over a period of time dispense cents/fractions of a bitcoin/whatever as per rules.

The rules - and default rules in particular! - would be important.

Maybe you like the author so much you donate on the regular just anyway.

Maybe a plugin in my browser can see when I visit a site and automatically donate. If I don't visit the site, it doesn't pay.

Maybe you donate 0.1 of a cent to ANY website that has no ads or doesn't trigger your adblocker. $1 buys you 1000 such visits.

Then a RSS-like "Donation" button would be meaningful for longer term income, without all the hassle of Patreon etc.

OTOH, I worry that sites would then start watching such transactions and try setting floor limits for how much you need to donate before they serve you.

Any ruleset will inspire gaming that ruleset.

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#542
post #366

I dislike being tracked as much as the next guy, but I often wonder what "our" ideal end-game goal is? By "our" I mean the typical HN crowd that understands both the technological and the economical implications of this. If we want top-grade products to remain available without a direct monetary transaction (i.e "free"), it seems we must give something that the product providers can turn into monetary value indirectl…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there is my girlfriend, who makes use show up 10 minutes early to make sure we are in our seats for the trailers! Honestly I don't mind the pre-movie trailers. I like movies and they give me time to go pee and stuff.

Trailers are the kind of ad targeting that I don’t object to. Advertising movies to me right before I see a movie is: * Relevant. You know I’m interested in movies, since I’m at one, so you don’t have to spy on me to do it. Some theaters might be spying on me, I dunno, but they don’t have to in principle . * Not directly interfering with my original purpose. The movie hasn’t started yet. The only thing you might be s…

> If the theater starts advertising scams, they have a brick-and-mortar address, they’re in the same legal jurisdiction as the visitors, and everyone sees the same ads

That’s something else that drives me crazy with both YouTube & Twitter. The number of scams that run in their ads.

Some falsely referring to some local celebrity only to sell some dodgy pseudo-financial product. Others selling medical products that would be heavily regulated if they did anything close to what they promise, sometimes vaguely citing "medical research" and "new discoveries".

Almost as if they didn’t review them before letting them go live!

But we never hear a word about that, no.

Governments try to have all our online chats preemptively monitored to chase after pedophiles[1] (and then it’ll be terrorists, and heck, after that, why not copyright infringements while they’re at it? ie Hadopi)…

The news and our Dear Leaders keep ranting about Facebook, Google and Twitter because of how they are used to spread disinformation to further some political goals…

They also all keeps bashing Facebook & Google for supposedly causing the ruin of the news media (all of which then rants on about it whenever given a chance, mostly spouting nonsense, even those I like).

But big, supposedly (and probably wrongly) trusted platforms spreading scams at scale all over the world? That’s apparently not worth any widespread effort, fine or headline.

Sorry for the rant. As I said; drives me crazy.

[1]: https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcont...

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#544
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: blocking ads guilt free: Not that long ago someone posted this beautiful Banksy quote about it on HN: > “People are taking the piss out of you everyday. They butt into your life, take a cheap shot at you and then disappear. They leer at you from tall buildings and make you feel small. They make flippant comments from buses that imply you’re not sexy enough and that all the fun is happening somewhere else. They ar…

> But don’t pretend that by offering your site for free and me using it for free somehow requires me to see shitty ads. If you want my money, ask for it. If your content is worth it I’ll pay for it. One of my personal favorites: movie theatres. You pay, a handsome amount of money, to see a movie, once, and if you happen to have the weird idea of not be just late enough to the movie, you get the wonderful, once in a l…

When I lived Brazil, they used to do like 1 ad (plus trailers), so it was pretty quick, and because everywhere (where I lived) had numbered seats, you could just be 5 min 'late'.

Now when I moved to Canada: no numbered seats, and 20 (yeah, TWENTY) minutes of ads + trailers. WTF is wrong with you people? I just don't go anymore

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there is my girlfriend, who makes use show up 10 minutes early to make sure we are in our seats for the trailers! Honestly I don't mind the pre-movie trailers. I like movies and they give me time to go pee and stuff.

Trailers are the kind of ad targeting that I don’t object to. Advertising movies to me right before I see a movie is: * Relevant. You know I’m interested in movies, since I’m at one, so you don’t have to spy on me to do it. Some theaters might be spying on me, I dunno, but they don’t have to in principle . * Not directly interfering with my original purpose. The movie hasn’t started yet. The only thing you might be s…

But they are interrupting your original purpose! You bought a ticket for a movie starting at time X. At time X the theater is showing ads. This means at time X+length of movie you're still not done. Your schedule was delayed for the ads.

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#546
post #366

I dislike being tracked as much as the next guy, but I often wonder what "our" ideal end-game goal is? By "our" I mean the typical HN crowd that understands both the technological and the economical implications of this. If we want top-grade products to remain available without a direct monetary transaction (i.e "free"), it seems we must give something that the product providers can turn into monetary value indirectl…

Thought-provoking questions! For me, ad-tech creates a few interrelated concerns:

1. Pervasive, asymmetric surveillance increases the power differential between individuals and big corps/governments. The latter groups can use that power to preempt healthy competition, causing individual quality of life to stagnate in a local maximum.

2. Ads themselves are attention hijacking, thought injection, and manipulation/coercion—all forms of mind control. Most people consider their mind central to who they are (often along with body, memories, and personality), it's wrong to mess with that non-consensually. (No, clicking "accept ToS" isn't consent.)

3. Centralizing surveillance data (as by companies and governments) prevents the surveilled from protecting their own vulnerabilities from bad actors. It's like passwords: you can invest in memorizing many strong ones, or re-use one that's written on a post-it on your desk, but since in this metaphor the surveillants are also storing your password in plaintext in paper filing cabinets, so it doesn't matter how much effort you put into protecting your passwords. Put another way, if the Coke recipe or a Boeing blueprint were leaked, it's the company's loss, so they work hard to protect their secrets. But if someone hacks a consumer company's user data, it's the users who are affected; if it weren't for regulatory fines and news exposés, companies wouldn't even be hurt by such breaches.

As for the end-game goals: Companies surveil and advertise because they're allowed to and it works.

We see futuristic attention hijacking tech in sci-fi films and TV, like giant holograms [Blade Runner], ads that address each individual [Minority Report], or ads that stop until you're paying attention again [Black Mirror]. But it's less common to see futuristic attention protection tech. (That makes sense if you consider the funding source of these sci-fi productions.) Black Mirror did have one episode where a person was exiled from everyone else's senses, but I can't think of others.

[It works] The individual's goal could be total control over perception of the world. As a natural-born human, you can easily close your eyes, but your other senses are harder to dampen, and so provide vectors for involuntary thought injection (ads). Now with widespread earbud use, you can sort of close your ears too. But imagine installing an ad-blocker so your senses just didn't report ads, or your brain didn't perceive them? As with many technologies, it'd be quite dystopian if centrally controlled, quite freeing if under individual control. Even more fantastical would be the ability to experience but be unaffected by stimuli (including ads), which might not even be a technology exactly.

[They're allowed] The other goal could be simply to use our collective power (i.e. government) to more strictly regulate—or even ban—surveillance and advertising (and enforce it!). While this always possible, I'm afraid it's no longer realistic in U.S., though other countries could still pull it off, as could whatever government eventually replaces the American one.

Lastly, what if nothing were free? Part of the problem is that the difference between $0 and $1 is much, much larger than from $1 to $2, i.e. free is a way better price than even dirt cheap (or sometimes even being paid). Tech start-ups are especially guilty abusing the marketing power of "free" in combination with unsustainable infusions of venture capital, which is dishonest if not somewhat fraudulent. Business would survive the removal of tactics like "free + ads" and "loss leaders".

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#547
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, true, forgot that one; it’s even better! Some also (used to?) connect to any open wifi nearby if you forgot to give it access to yours. How thoughtful… Pretty much the reason I scorned every single "smart tv"

My TV seriously wanted to put itself in some sort of demo mode if I didn’t connect it to wifi. That included restarting itself and redoing the settings every 30 minutes or whatever. It’s an insane ultimatum! So yeah it’s in a zone it can ping home base and nothing less. But for the 99% of people who can’t do that crap it sucks.

I haven't had a TV in years, but if I had to get a large display for some reason I'd go for a dedicated large monitor + a set top box or some media centre appliance to actually play the media/tune in to TV. You pay a lot more (I was looking at a Dell 55" monitor for around $5k AUD, where an equivalent size TV is $1K from a name brand manufacturer), but IMHO it's worth it.

Or maybe skip straight to an LED projector, I hear those are nice.

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#548
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's solved by banning that group/activity. When the value proposition is net-negative, there should be curbs on such activity.

Who's gonna ban? I'm cynical but if it's the ad network, then other ad networks will not ban that behavior and in turn outcompete the one that did. If it's the government (somewhere), there's a high probability the implementation of it will either be unenforceable (slap on the wrist for players making crazy money) or poorly implemented to the point of being counterproductive (can even happen if different governments…

The coalition for better ads? https://www.betterads.org/standards/

Google is now blocking ads for all Chrome users for sites that have shown ads that are considered bad. Of course there's a bunch of companies doing rules lawyering to squeak by and they haven't been adding new bad experiences like they should. It does seem like something an online petition would help with though, as the non-CMA members of the coalition would then have more data to throw around about how users view these annoying ad experiences.

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Y'all should really start naming manufacturers and models so I can avoid them.

It rhymes with “ram tongue”

I am not surprised. Samsung are well known for bundling a load of crapware on Android phones to the point where every review of lightly themed Android phones screams "clean, stock interface".

Re: Facebook users said no to tracking, and now advertisers are panicking

#550
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mark my words: as soon as the world starts to turn their back on advertisement, there will be several micropayement unicorns flourishing in the next 6 months. 20+ paid subscriptions make no sense, but checking a box with your ISP to get a 2 USD monthly credit to use on the articles you click on, could work.

I'm still disappointed that Flattr never took off

I still have an account!
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