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How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

quantamagazine.org

191–200 of 359 posts

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#191
For 50 years, mathematicians have believed that the total number of real numbers is unknowable.

It's an established result that the Continuum Hypothesis is independent of Zermelo–Fraenkel axioms of set theory. No proof is going change that.

So whatever has been proved here doesn't change that. It will take a second to get the reference but Raymond Smullyan says essentially that "we're not looking for a proof or disproof of CH, we're looking for an assumption that can be shown to be natural enough that we can take it as an axiom".

Just sayin' since the (subheading) writer seems to be playing fast and loose with the concepts involved.

Edit: article goes on to give rigorous explanation but still starting "no one knew" confuses what's going on.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#192
> How many real numbers exist?

You might be tempted to say "lots". And you would be right, as far as that goes.

But that doesn't satisfy a real mathematician. The question that immediately arises is whether "lots" is "enough". And that leads the better sort of mathematician inevitably to: "enough for what?" That is what mathematicians are deep in the middle of exploring, now.

For example, when you are asked, "Does this skirt make my butt look too big?", you obviously must not say "yes", but you just as obviously cannot, with an entirely clear conscience, say "no", either. But for anyone with an intact survival instinct, the counter-question, "too big for what?" should spring immediately to mind. And it's a good one, but it depends intimately on the true size of the set of real numbers. So, this is not an idle pursuit.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#193
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are multiple constructivist approaches possible. However since my objection to classical approaches is that I want "X exists" to be meaningful, I like mathematical objects that can be written down with a finite number of symbols in a finite space. Which means that I'm only interested in a countable universe of possible mathematical things. If you say "exists" about anything else, I'll understand you - I do…

What’s the problem with it being “artificial”? Is your problem purely linguistic? You just dislike the word “exists” being used in this context?

The problem is that exists comes to mean something technical that doesn't match common usage.

Let's take my favorite example.

In graph theory, a minor of a graph is a graph you can get by removing vertices, removing edges, or by replacing an edge-vertex-edge triple with a single edge. Many categories of graphs are closed under the act of taking minors. For example planar graphs, graphs you can draw on the plane with no crossings, are.

The category of planar graphs is entirely described by the fact that any graph that isn't planar must have either K5 or K3,3 as minors. That is, a graph with 5 vertices, all connected. Or a graph with 2 groups of 3 vertices, that all connect to each other. Therefore we call those two graphs the "forbidden minors" for planar graphs.

The Robertson–Seymour theorem says that any category of graphs which is closed under graph minors has a similar description. There is a finite list of forbidden minors which, if none are minors of a given graph, then that graph is in the category.

Since there is a polynomial time algorithm to detect whether a given graph is a minor of another, this immediately means any category of graphs closed under taking minors must have a polynomial time algorithm to test for membership. Just test each forbidden minor.

So far this is straightforward, but here is where things get weird.

The first catch is that the Robertson–Seymour theorem is non-constructive. That is, it says that the list exists and is finite. But it does not bound the number. It does not give us a way to find those minors. It does not give us any way to determine whether we have a complete list. For example we know of thousands of minimal forbidden minors for graphs that can be drawn on a torus, and do not know if our list is complete.

The second catch is that we know that none of those things are possible to do. That is, there are collections of categories of such graphs such that we can prove that no algorithm can bound the number, no algorithm can search for those examples, and no algorithm can verify that a list of forbidden minors is complete.

In what sense does a finite thing that is unfindable, unverifiable, and of unknowable size actually exist? And, if you think that it exists, in what sense is something of unboundable size actually finite?

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#194
post #180
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't need to, I can measure and label with real numbers. That's enough for being a number.

You'll only ever use 0% of the real numbers for that. Unless you say that you count with "the reals", You don't need and won't use "the reals" for measurement and labelling, 100% of which are indescribable.

technically you will use an infintesimally small real number approaching 0%...

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#195
post #192

> How many real numbers exist? You might be tempted to say "lots". And you would be right, as far as that goes. But that doesn't satisfy a real mathematician. The question that immediately arises is whether "lots" is "enough". And that leads the better sort of mathematician inevitably to: "enough for what?" That is what mathematicians are deep in the middle of exploring, now. For example, when you are asked, "Does th…

Answering “Does this skirt make my butt look too big?” with something that “depends intimately on the true size of the set of real numbers” seems to be among the worst strategies.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#196

Great article. Since it looks like a lot of folks are interested in this article, some extra background. First, what is forcing? The article actually has a great description of ultrapowers (a key part of the construction) but it goes by a little fast, so you might like Tim Chow's "A beginner's guide to forcing" [1] which does a good job not only laying out the mathematical details at a high level, but also really cle…

Hmmm…somebody named “chow” faking something…why is that not surprising?

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what the article is talking about is the question whether or not the cardinality of real numbers is the smallest uncountable infinity or some other, larger uncountable infinity. The only countable infinity is aleph-0, the cardinality of natural numbers, and Cantor showed that aleph-0 is too small to hold all reals. So reals must be uncountable, but there is an infinite hierarchy of uncountable infinities, and it…

unrelated: how do we know there are no alephs between 0 and 1?

That's the definition of aleph-1.

The continuum hypothesis is that 2^aleph-0 (number of sets of integers or number of reals) = aleph-1.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#199

Great article. Since it looks like a lot of folks are interested in this article, some extra background. First, what is forcing? The article actually has a great description of ultrapowers (a key part of the construction) but it goes by a little fast, so you might like Tim Chow's "A beginner's guide to forcing" [1] which does a good job not only laying out the mathematical details at a high level, but also really cle…

> but at the same time there is no "right answer"—all of these axioms, after all, are independent of ZFC, and it's "ok" to add any of them. Minor quible: Just because a potential axiom is independent of ZF(C) doesn't make it necessarily "okay" to add. Potential axioms can be unsound, for example if they prove new / untrue Sigma_1 statements. As an example, even in the likely circumstance that ¬Con(ZFC) is independent…

> because it asserts the existence of natural numbers that have no "written form"

I don’t see why that should imply it wouldn't be "okay" to add ¬Con(ZFC).

It may be highly counterintuitive, but the history of mathematics is full of counterintuitive results that nowadays are accepted as true in mainstream mathematics.

Well-known examples are the existence of irrational numbers, the claim that the set of natural numbers has the same size as that of the rational numbers, the existence of hyperbolic geometry, and the Banach-Tarski paradox.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#200

Great article. Since it looks like a lot of folks are interested in this article, some extra background. First, what is forcing? The article actually has a great description of ultrapowers (a key part of the construction) but it goes by a little fast, so you might like Tim Chow's "A beginner's guide to forcing" [1] which does a good job not only laying out the mathematical details at a high level, but also really cle…

Thanks for these references! The Chow paper is the first one I've read that makes me feel like I understand forcing and Cohen's proof.
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