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Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

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Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#121
post #3

“If you look at the GitHub Terms of Service, no matter what license you use, you give GitHub the right to host your code and to use your code to improve their products and features,” Downing says. “So with respect to code that’s already on GitHub, I think the answer to the question of copyright infringement is fairly straightforward.” I don't know if it's really that straightforward. The TOS includes snippets like th…

An interesting thought experiment around this whole topic: If I were to take all the scripts of profitable films rated G or PG and train an AI on it, generate a bunch of scripts, then made movies out of those scripts, would I lose in court? Tangibly, how is this AI method substantially different from non-clean-room implementations? In terms of business use, it seems incredibly risky to me to even just *use* GitHub si…

No thought experiment needed. If I watch a bunch of movies and then make my own movie, whether or not I lose in court depends on if the movie I made is at least "substantially similar" to any movie I happened to watch - or, in other words, had "access" to. That's a fact-intensive thing that juries usually decide on a case-by-case basis.

The difference between that and having an AI do it is probably low. My gut instinct is that using an AI constitutes "access" to the AI's training corpus, so if it spits out something at least substantially similar to that corpus, then I'm infringing if I use that output. If it doesn't constitute access, then a copyright owner would have to prove "striking similarity", which would really only cover things like using Copilot to spit out fragments of old Quake code verbatim.

Clean-room is a way of arguing down the level of access that you have to something that you want to make a non-infringing copy of. It usually requires having actual attorneys review everything the clean-room engineers get to see, and stripping out the parts that are actually copyrightable. Merely training an ML system on input as a way to only have access to the uncopyrightable parts of that input probably wouldn't work.

Pretty much every Internet service is going to have similar clauses to GitHub's; because anything else would basically be a "click here to make me liable for copyright infringement" button. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that merely running something like GitHub but without a ToS would still give you similar levels of implied license over whatever people push to your server.

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#123
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they have a right to train in it, but not to present portions verbatim. Do you have a right to look at a bunch of open source code and come to conclusions about good programming practices? Are you prevented from knowing that a specific library in a language is good/common for a specific task because you see others using it? That's analogous to training, where there are associations between things, in my mind.…

You're taking the machine "learning" metaphor literally. A human being learning something is not analogous to training an ML model. Training models is more analogous to compilation or lossy encoding or compression.

I'm thinking more "association" than "learning", and in both cases.

If an algorithm of some sort scans a bunch of repos regarding video encoding and decoding and sees a lot of ffmpeg use, it might associate ffmpeg with video encoding and decoding, and decide to present some info about ffmpeg and a generic snippet to include ffmpeg as a library and initialize it if it associates the current project with that.

If I have perused a few encoding or decoding repos at some point and I think of the current project as having to do with encoding or decoding of video, I might immediately think ffmpeg even if I've never used it in a project as a library because I remembered seeing it in projects that used it, and look for some initialization code.

In what ways are these materially different? What makes the random conceptual associations in my head from what I've seen previously different than an algorithm that collects the same?

> Training models is more analogous to compilation or lossy encoding or compression.

And learning in people isn't? Isn't all knowledge transference in people analogous to lossy encoding and compression?

I don't know about you, but in college I don't remember regurgitating sections of "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" to complete assignments, I remember studying it, internalizing parts of it on a conceptual level (as well as remembering specific fairly small chunks almost exactly), and using that to solve problems or answer questions or make associations.

I'm not saying ML and and learning in humans is the same. I do think for the very specific case presented here in how it's used, there are some parallels. Feel free to disabuse me of that notion if you have evidence that contradicts it though. I'm not wedded to that position, but I would want to see arguments to the contrary before abandoning it.

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#124
Somewhat tangentially, Kate Downing is also the person who somewhat recently campaigned to raise awareness of the crisis in affordable housing in the Bay Area and Palo Alto in particular, and wrote a viral editorial after giving up and moving to the more affordable Santa Cruz.[1]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12288306

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#125
I think the discussions miss a bit an important point. IANAL, but I think if a young programmer reads a lot of source code on GitHub, and based on this reading becomes a better programmer, this is a fair use of copyrighted material and pretty much independant of the license. If I read any book and learn the corresponding language, this isn't a copyright violation of the book either. This starts, when I begin to quote from that book or the programmer takes snippets from the programs that got read.

The problem is, I don't think you can really claim that Copilot learned to program. While some of the output seems to be something new, most of the times it looks more like a recomposition of learned fragments if not even longer pieces of verbatim code taken from copyrighted material. We have seen examples of this. And in this moment, it becomes a copyright discussion, probably determined by the volume of copyrighted material reproduced. Which by the way is always the risk if a human uses certain training material. The better one is at memorizing things, the more there is the risk.

Or put it the other way around: if Copilot would use its "knowledge" of programs to advise the programmer like pointing out potential errors without reproducing anything it used for learning, it should be fine. But that is not how it works.

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#126
Do we have any proof that Copilot works?

I assume it's a pile of rubbish that's currently fooling Youtube hype based programmers and followers. Has any ok but real programmer used it solid for a week yet and wants to keep going?

This is tied to the legal argument.

If Copilot works (Which I cannot believe it would) it changes many legal points. Garbage spewing out copyright code is different to something that 'understands' copyright code.

And who cares about copyright if it's like all other hype based AI currently, unusable in the real world. All the current HN seems to be bike shedding around legal. Does noone program anymore?

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#127
post #2

These agree with my conclusions- it's fair use or permitted by license, but that it remains untested (as the GPL does in a larger sense) by law. I guess in about 5 years we'll see Softbank v. GitHub CoPilot in the supreme court deciding whether ML can make transformative work.

Why do we accept that the courts are so slow? I don't understand why there isn't a drive to reform courts by accelerating outcomes by an order of magnitude, and by making outcomes not depend on wealth.

[deleted]

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#128
post #125

I think the discussions miss a bit an important point. IANAL, but I think if a young programmer reads a lot of source code on GitHub, and based on this reading becomes a better programmer, this is a fair use of copyrighted material and pretty much independant of the license. If I read any book and learn the corresponding language, this isn't a copyright violation of the book either. This starts, when I begin to quote…

If a person who's never seen a goat looks at a million copyrighted images of goats and draws a goat, are they committing copyright infringement?

What if an algorithm does the same? The result is 'a recomposition of learned fragments' in either case.

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#129
> So with respect to code that’s already on GitHub, I think the answer to the question of copyright infringement is fairly straightforward.

That statement is wrong.

Github does not know if the uploader of some lines of code is actually the author of said code or otherwise allowed to upload it.

Imagine I uploaded the source code of Microsoft Windows to Github.

The Github ToS can force users to grant them whatever they want, but I am legally unable to grant them any usage rights for the Microsoft Windows code that I uploaded.

There will be many cases of people uploading code, including open source code, from elsewhere to Github, and the original author not caring or whatever (e.g. informal mirrors), where the uploader is unable to grant Github any rights.

Re: Analyzing the legal implications of GitHub Copilot

#130
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about open source projects where the uploader and github users are not the only copyright holders? As a user i can't grant github any random license for the code, if I maintain for example Linux or python or any other old project there. The ONLY available terms are those given by the license, surely?

If you are putting up code on GitHub to which you don’t have all the rights you’re actually in violation of their TOS and you are violating the rights of other copyright holders. I understand this is common and may not violate community norms or expectations but it is technically a license violation on multiple fronts. Contributors who add to existing GitHub projects are providing the same license to GitHub as the pr…

Sure, perhaps the uploader could be sued, but this is irrelevant to the question whether Github ends up with valid rights. (the answer is no)
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