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Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#91
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it suddenly with all this talk about racism ? > Racism in SF or LA is bad... > ...having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with... Who are those racists and in what way do they express their racism? I'm a European who has been on your side of the Atlantic and Pacific quite often for work- and leisure-related purposes over a period of several decades.…

As a latino, I can tell you what type of racism I have faced in the east coast, for example: - While chatting on the phone with a friend in Spanish, I get people screaming at me: "Speak English! This is America, go back to your country!!. ......" - "Chinga tu madre!! Mexican!" (I'm not Mexican) - "We dont speak Spanish here, sorry..." even tho I can communicate perfectly well in English. and many more, in my personal…

I find it strange the phrase "political weapon". As if the idea that there might be an issue in the country and politicians wanting to do something about it makes it a weapon. "Oh no Mr. Smith, your not allowed to mention the things that are wrong, otherwise people might think your using it to point out the flaws in your opposition."

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#92
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it suddenly with all this talk about racism ? > Racism in SF or LA is bad... > ...having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with... Who are those racists and in what way do they express their racism? I'm a European who has been on your side of the Atlantic and Pacific quite often for work- and leisure-related purposes over a period of several decades.…

As a latino, I can tell you what type of racism I have faced in the east coast, for example: - While chatting on the phone with a friend in Spanish, I get people screaming at me: "Speak English! This is America, go back to your country!!. ......" - "Chinga tu madre!! Mexican!" (I'm not Mexican) - "We dont speak Spanish here, sorry..." even tho I can communicate perfectly well in English. and many more, in my personal…

Is that racism? In that case I have been subjected to it many times even in my country of birth (the Netherlands) by speaking ABN ('algemeen beschaafd Nederlands', meaning not a local dialect but the type of Dutch spoken by the king or queen) in a place like Limburg (the southern-most province) where they tell me 'Ich spreck niet met hollanders!" (literally "I do not speak with people from the province of Holland" where "Holland" is meant to be understood as "not from the southern provinces") in an angry voice. I can understand the Limburg dialect since I speak German as well as Dutch and Limburgs lies somewhere in between (depending on which local variety, sometimes it seems more German than Dutch). This is only within a single tiny country, if I set my foot outside of it and make the mistake of starting to speak English in France I'd often only be met with feigned misunderstanding or foul looks by people who understand me perfectly well but consider their language an integral part of their identity and as such feel that others should make the effort to use it when communicating with Frenchmen. Were I to start in halting French we'd often end up speaking halting English without any bad feelings. Is that racism? No, it is not. It it a form of chauvinism, a way to mark people as not being part of their group. It is not racism since they do not react to my "race" (skin colour, facial features and whatever else is linked to "race") but to the way I speak. I could have spoken Limbursch or French and avoided their reaction. I can not change my race while I can change the way I speak if I so desire.

> If you are a white European, you will have a hard time seeing racism, compared with people who are not white.

That is a racist statement in and of itself, and you do not even know whether I'm a "white" European, let alone the fact that "white" means just as much as "black" when it comes to indicating the culture people grew up and live in. Since I can only assume you are not a racist I assume you made that statement because it is part of the current narrative - it is called standpoint epistemology [1], part of critical theory - without really giving it some thought.

If you agree that racism is used as a political weapon it is only prudent to make sure you do not unwittingly make yourself become a part of that weapon.

Yes, people tend to react differently to people depending on whether they are from their own group or from the outside, up to and including to telling them to "go back where they came from". This is said to Polish migrant workers in western Europe, to Palestinian migrants in Syria, to Koreans in Japan - in all cases you'll be hard-pressed to find any "racial" differences between the groups. It is chauvinism, nationalism, protectionism or just fear of being overrun by "the other". It is not racism and should not be called such, specifically for the reason you yourself mentioned: racism is being used as a political weapon.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standpoint_theory

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#93

The bay during the 2010s was a very special time and place. Hard to understand if you weren't there. I've never felt a sense of community and energy and excitement like that anywhere else. Not to mention all the free pizza and beer. If COVID is over and that world comes back, I'd love to return. But right now there doesn't seem to be much point.

> It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era — the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run... but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant...

> Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, 1971

I'm pretty sure people have been saying this about the Bay Area since the Gold Rush.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#94
post #46

Most of these articles were written from a certain perspective for a certain demographic. I have friends with kids, who are minorities, who have decent/good paying jobs and they never entertained the idea for a second of moving from the Bay Area. We chatted weighing the good and bad of going full remote and moving to a less expensive city. Racism in SF or LA is bad, but it's a known quantity. Being a minority and hav…

What is it suddenly with all this talk about racism ? > Racism in SF or LA is bad... > ...having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with... Who are those racists and in what way do they express their racism? I'm a European who has been on your side of the Atlantic and Pacific quite often for work- and leisure-related purposes over a period of several decades.…

> If I can believe the current narrative things have been going from bad to worse to black people walk the streets in fear of their lives from racist cops in the last few years.

That's not new, it's just better publicized now:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/12/movies/boyz-n-the-hood-jo...:

> ‘Boyz N the Hood’ at 30: A Vivid Examination of Racism at Work

> ...This is evident when Tre (Cuba Gooding Jr.) interacts with Los Angeles’s finest. As a child he sees how even a Black police officer doesn’t take his father, Furious (Laurence Fishburne), seriously when he reports a home break-in; when Tre is older, the same officer pulls a gun on him during a routine traffic stop. He quickly learns that the cops are there to neither protect nor serve him or his neighbors. What Singleton shows us about the relationship between the police and Black residents may be well understood now, but at the time it was rare for the Black community’s view on policing to be so well embodied by Hollywood. I was always taught to be wary of officers as a young Black man, but this was one of the first times I saw the rationale for that fear onscreen in a major American film.

----

> Either everyone has been blind for decades or the current narrative about racism is a lie meant to achieve some political purpose. I do not believe the former to be true so the latter seems to be the answer but that makes me wonder why the parent poster brought up the bad racism in SF and LA and the racism in Boise, Idaho.

Like most things, it's not that black and white, but a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#95
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a latino, I can tell you what type of racism I have faced in the east coast, for example: - While chatting on the phone with a friend in Spanish, I get people screaming at me: "Speak English! This is America, go back to your country!!. ......" - "Chinga tu madre!! Mexican!" (I'm not Mexican) - "We dont speak Spanish here, sorry..." even tho I can communicate perfectly well in English. and many more, in my personal…

Is that racism? In that case I have been subjected to it many times even in my country of birth (the Netherlands) by speaking ABN ('algemeen beschaafd Nederlands', meaning not a local dialect but the type of Dutch spoken by the king or queen) in a place like Limburg (the southern-most province) where they tell me 'Ich spreck niet met hollanders!" (literally "I do not speak with people from the province of Holland" wh…

I lived in Limburg for a few years near Sittard. My daughter was even born there. I noticed her Dutch birth certificate doesn’t include race like US birth certificates. Kinda tells me race and Whiteness is a US construct.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#96
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a latino, I can tell you what type of racism I have faced in the east coast, for example: - While chatting on the phone with a friend in Spanish, I get people screaming at me: "Speak English! This is America, go back to your country!!. ......" - "Chinga tu madre!! Mexican!" (I'm not Mexican) - "We dont speak Spanish here, sorry..." even tho I can communicate perfectly well in English. and many more, in my personal…

I find it strange the phrase "political weapon". As if the idea that there might be an issue in the country and politicians wanting to do something about it makes it a weapon. "Oh no Mr. Smith, your not allowed to mention the things that are wrong, otherwise people might think your using it to point out the flaws in your opposition."

I think "political tool" is a better term, and I believe it's an incredibly effective tool for dividing people who might otherwise be united on certain issues.

I think that after the 2008 financial crisis and the following bailouts for the people who caused it, a lot of people got fed up, and occupy wall street was born. Occupy was a class based movement: the ultra-rich vs everyone else. And then something happened, and suddenly everyone had to be divided by every other attribute imaginable - race, sex, gender, disability - class just wasn't as important. Instead of the 1% vs the 99%, the 99% was divided by all those attributes and fought each other over whose issues were more important. Then it quietly fizzled out and nothing was accomplished.

The 1% must be so happy watching the 99% squabble amongst themselves over who's the most oppressed. I think that most, if not all, of the major political/social issues today should be viewed through a class-based lens _first_; everything else should come second. But the users of this tool cannot have that, and here we are: everything is about race/sex/gender and nothing is about class.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that racism? In that case I have been subjected to it many times even in my country of birth (the Netherlands) by speaking ABN ('algemeen beschaafd Nederlands', meaning not a local dialect but the type of Dutch spoken by the king or queen) in a place like Limburg (the southern-most province) where they tell me 'Ich spreck niet met hollanders!" (literally "I do not speak with people from the province of Holland" wh…

I lived in Limburg for a few years near Sittard. My daughter was even born there. I noticed her Dutch birth certificate doesn’t include race like US birth certificates. Kinda tells me race and Whiteness is a US construct.

Racism doesn't need the validity of a birth certificate to exist. My birth certificate doesn't list if I'm gay, straight, or bi. Doesn't mean the LGBTQ community isn't discriminated, attacked, and sometimes killed for simply existing.

The Dutch knowing nothing of racism is super fucking rich. Read your own history books.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#98
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a latino, I can tell you what type of racism I have faced in the east coast, for example: - While chatting on the phone with a friend in Spanish, I get people screaming at me: "Speak English! This is America, go back to your country!!. ......" - "Chinga tu madre!! Mexican!" (I'm not Mexican) - "We dont speak Spanish here, sorry..." even tho I can communicate perfectly well in English. and many more, in my personal…

Is that racism? In that case I have been subjected to it many times even in my country of birth (the Netherlands) by speaking ABN ('algemeen beschaafd Nederlands', meaning not a local dialect but the type of Dutch spoken by the king or queen) in a place like Limburg (the southern-most province) where they tell me 'Ich spreck niet met hollanders!" (literally "I do not speak with people from the province of Holland" wh…

I didnt say you were a "white" european, I said: "IF you are....", there is nothing racist on what I said. You are using a common pattern the far right uses here in the US, ala Carlson Tucker "What is white supremacy anyway?". I agree there is racism everywhere , between all races, religions, etc... But , we were talking about the US, and the differences between regions regarding racism, etc. I was also exposing my personal experience. Also , the argument of "there is no such a thing as racism" is itself racist, regardless where you are from and how you look. Disregarding other peoples unnecessary hardship and the problems they have to deal with, just because they look different or come from a different place, is truly immoral.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#99

I'd love to come back, but the problem isn't with the city, it's the political situation. Who wants to start a company or a business if the local government can arbitrarily shut down your office for several months? Who wants to live in a city that could shut down bars, restaurants, and theaters for a year. I'd rather make my own decisions based on my personal health situation. For several months a vaccinated individu…

So you don't want to do business in CA, NY, Europe, Great Britain, Singapore, China, India, Australia, New Zealand, or Mexico, to name a few? Basically, you don't want to start a business in any of the world's biggest economies, or in the places with the best tech scenes or financing opportunities? Activities were shutdown because of a massive global pandemic the likes of which the world hasn't seen for over a centur…

The refusal to follow the CDC guidelines for vaccinated individuals and masks was simply a good example of a government that was/is not interested in following the science, and demonstrates that CA is not going to act rationally in a public health situation. That's not an environment I would want to risk starting a business or investing in.

Re: Tech workers swore off the Bay Area, now they’re coming back

#100
post #46

Most of these articles were written from a certain perspective for a certain demographic. I have friends with kids, who are minorities, who have decent/good paying jobs and they never entertained the idea for a second of moving from the Bay Area. We chatted weighing the good and bad of going full remote and moving to a less expensive city. Racism in SF or LA is bad, but it's a known quantity. Being a minority and hav…

What is it suddenly with all this talk about racism ? > Racism in SF or LA is bad... > ...having to deal with racism in Boise, Idaho, for example, was something they didn't feel comfortable with... Who are those racists and in what way do they express their racism? I'm a European who has been on your side of the Atlantic and Pacific quite often for work- and leisure-related purposes over a period of several decades.…

I mean a decade ago we didn’t have social media that allowed minorities to say and record their experiences. Makes sense to me that once minorities don’t have to work around a gatekeeper like MSM that suddenly everyone realizes what a shitshow it is. There were countless George Floyds before George Floyd but only now we have people with cameras to capture it and put it somewhere for everyone to see.
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