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Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

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Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is as it should be IMO. When you position yourself to be a de-facto public square, you shouldn't get to selectively operate like a private club when it suits you.

If the people want a free-speech-respecting public square, they should petition their state to create one that is compelling enough to become the choice of the majority, not let private citizens do the hard work of creating an effective square, and then use force to commandeer it.

Is it really a mainstream position of modern libertarians that state-owned corporations competing against private interest is better than passing a law against some externality? This reads like a Chinese Communist Party press-release and not a non-aggression-pact, individualist libertarian.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the people want a free-speech-respecting public square, they should petition their state to create one that is compelling enough to become the choice of the majority, not let private citizens do the hard work of creating an effective square, and then use force to commandeer it.

Is it really a mainstream position of modern libertarians that state-owned corporations competing against private interest is better than passing a law against some externality? This reads like a Chinese Communist Party press-release and not a non-aggression-pact, individualist libertarian.

I can't speak for the mainstream libertarian position, only my own beliefs on what is consistent with human rights and what ruleset would likely be conducive to economic evolution towards greater functionality.

There is nothing wrong with state-owned corporations in principle. They need not violate any one's rights. How they are funded, and what laws are created to assist them, can of course be problematic, as can the general inefficiency of the state sector.

But if the funding sources for the state subsidies are not based on violating private property or contracting rights, there are no laws enacted to give the state-sponsored enterprise a monopoly over a market, and the subsidies address an externality to produce significant positive economic returns, then it would be fine.

This approach to government intervention is less risky, as failure of government administration will only waste the resources expended on the state-sponsored enterprise, while leaving private citizens with the private sector alternatives. Regimenting an entire sector with top-down rules risks destroying that entire sector if the government chooses the wrong set of rules.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the people want a free-speech-respecting public square, they should petition their state to create one that is compelling enough to become the choice of the majority, not let private citizens do the hard work of creating an effective square, and then use force to commandeer it.

The clause only affects when the platform is big enough. It's a concentration of power in the hands of a few, certainly not the shareholders as you say in other comment. That such a concentration of power will be abused is almost a law of nature and so laws are put into place, the same way there are laws to prevent monopolies, to the detriment of shareholders also. You may think that this practicalities don't align w…

It's not an abuse of power if a) it's contractual and b) it's private property. One doesn't automatically become a victim, incapable of provide genuine consent to the terms offered, by virtue of the party offering the terms having a service that they badly want or need.

If you believe otherwise, then I challenge you to convince a court of that. Courts, under common law, will invalidate any contract where the parties to it did not provide informed and genuine consent to the terms contained in it.

Resorting to legislative intervention suggests lacking the confidence in the validity of the allegations that premise it to use the judicial free market track.

>>as someone living in a country with multiple nation wide and regional state owned television channels I think they are terrible idea because they are extremely inefficient compared with private ones and also degenerate into propaganda machines for the political party in power, and the longer the same party is in power the worse.

Two points:

a) you think the polity is incapable of managing large organizatons competently enough to compete with shareholder-run private enterprises, yet you think this same polity can craft effective cookie-cutter rules that will affect millions of interactions a day. It's not a coherent model of the world.

b) the state is not limited to organizations under its direct management to support its policies. As I explained in a response to a sibling comment of yours, the state could still tap market forces to bring about public squares that abide with its guidelines, by providing subsidies to private parties developing such platforms, in exchange for the parties entering into an irrevocable covenant that requires them to follow the state's rules.

Yet another option would be the state funding decentralized open-source protocols that are capable of entirely replacing centralized parties in many markets. The state, being publicly funded, is the only entity capable of cost-effectively funding non-profit initiatives like this that produce public goods.

My larger point is that the state should not be monopolizing industries. It should provide alternatives to the private options. If it fails, the public still has the private options. If it succeeds, it did so by providing an option superior to those provided by the private sector. This imposes accountability on the state, by leaving it with competitors to act as a yardstick, while ensuring its interventions only impact the market to the extent that they improve it.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but I think "companies" and "individuals" are very different, and discussions around corporate responsibility and society are different from regulating social behavior between two individuals.

So what about regulating it between three individuals? Or four? Or four hundred? At what point does collective social behavior become (y)our concern?

Profit motive, the ability for newcomers in your market-space to challenge your position in your market, and the form of your organization.

Two people in their house,

a large, transparent non-profit advocacy organization,

a dark money lobbying org, and

a hundred-billion-dollar for-profit incumbent that acts as a pillar of human interaction for news, education and entertainment across the globe

are very different situations. It isn't as simple as scaling up numbers.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#455
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It distinguishes between something and a publisher, in that it says whatever-you-want-to-call-that-something can't be treated as the publisher (it uses that word) of information it's distributing.

It distinguishes between the person who uploaded the video and YouTube hosting the video. How YouTube exerts editorial control to promote some videos or delete others is not relevant. This is a good rule. HN couldn’t possibly exist without it. There’s been a lot of really bad information on 230 from people who ought to know better.

I got mine from the text of the law. It does what you say, and also what I say. I definitely doesn't not distinguish between a publisher and a service provider (host, platform, whatever). It does so explicitly.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#456
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Because it's a violation of other people's rights to control their own private property. It's predicated on using the threat of imprisonment against people acting peacefully, which infringes upon human rights. 2. Because it's lazy and lacking credibility: it's a claim to being privy to 'the correct path for society' , without showing the ability to create something of value. The state could still tap market forces…

1. A company is not a person. Also, the company did not have to go to jail, it got a fine.

"Punks" arguing for corporate rights to ban content in the name of human rights.

I think I will take a stroll through the forest, maybe I meat a bear that plays guitar and sells refreshing lemonade. I am prepared for anything.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#457
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A company is not a person. Also, the company did not have to go to jail, it got a fine.

A company belongs to its shareholders. Commandeering it violates the shareholders' rights to their property. All legal injunctions are predicated on the threat of imprisonment, even fines: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/enforci...

In Germany, near the top of our most fundamental lawbook, the Grundgesetz, it says:

> §14.2 GG: Eigentum verpflichtet. Sein Gebrauch soll zugleich dem Wohle der Allgemeinheit dienen. [0]

Which roughly translates to:

> §14.2 GG: Property obliges. Its use should also serve the public good.

[0]: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_14.html

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does YouTube's TOS really not contain statements giving them the ability to stop hosting any video, at any time, for any reason? The highest court in Germany (for civil and criminal proceedings) wrote this in one of their rulings: > Depending on the circumstances, especially if private companies - as in this case - move into a dominant position and take over the provision of the framework conditions of public commu…

This is as it should be IMO. When you position yourself to be a de-facto public square, you shouldn't get to selectively operate like a private club when it suits you.

Don't judge too quickly. The ruling also made clear that it is judges who determine if content violates the law. It was not the case here. But it also means that platforms would have to comply with the judiciary restricting content and face fines if they don't. That wouldn't be too positive for the net and its development under certain circumstances.

Double-edged sword...

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#459
post #353

A good move. Everything so big as YouTube should follow national laws. Otherwise private terms of policies become more part of society than national ones. Then the hundreds of years of fighting becomes nothing and we are back in a modern kingdom based society.

What if it is an authoritarian government that enacts national laws for the purpose of censorship?

They already do, and Google complies with those laws. See China. It is quite telling that Google seems to put more effort into complying with the CCP than German law, however.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#460
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Nothing these platforms censor or began censoring early on was anywhere near reasonable. It was all political grandstanding to show those in power that big tech are the good guys. They’ll do the political bidding of the elites and politicians will only threaten to hold companies responsible to gain points with their constituents. All the while the politicians and big tech are in bed with each ensuring the info…

So users who troll and harass other users, spam, post hateful content, etc. should never be banned? That's just leads to a precipitous decline in quality and drives other users away. Why would I want to spend my leisure time on a platform filled with 13 year-old shouting racial slurs?

Mostly no, they should not be banned. You'll almost never see it. It's really not a big deal. Would need to get into unlawfulness before considering to censor (slander, doxing, imminent threat to harm, etc).
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