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Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

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Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#61

Post by beardbandit »

danparsonson wrote: post #34
yodelshady wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract killers are responding to demand, but we don't let them legally practice their trade.

So people who hire contract killers are not to blame? I don't understand this argument - saying "it's not our fault the cattle/hardwood logging/mining companies cut down the Amazon" is nonsense, that's been widely known about for decades and we (collectively) just bought more and more of this stuff. It's their fault and ours.

What good does blame do if the only thing that can potentially change the course is public policy?

I find it a lot harder trying to convince everyone to change versus forcing everyone to change through policy and enforcement through government.

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#62

Post by danparsonson »

ricardobeat wrote: post #43
danparsonson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people who hire contract killers are not to blame? I don't understand this argument - saying "it's not our fault the cattle/hardwood logging/mining companies cut down the Amazon" is nonsense, that's been widely known about for decades and we (collectively) just bought more and more of this stuff. It's their fault and ours.

Public policy is always the greatest factor for change at this scale. It’s extremely unlikely that you’ll effect change by individual action, even if you enlist a church-like following.

Sure, and (in countries with functioning democracies) public policy responds to pressure from the public. It doesn't tend to change in the face of public apathy.

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#64

Post by Glavnokoman »

xwdv wrote: post #52
travisjungroth wrote: post #6

I spent the last 10 days in a hut on the edge of the Amazon and am in a hotel in Lima, waiting for my flight out of Peru. Seeing this story, I thought I'd add one brief first hand account. The jungle was noticeably cut down since I had last been there 7 months ago. What had been just a hiking trail to our camp had been widened to the size of a road by all the tree clearing. The trees are pretty thin and not the best…

Some people were talking about owning lots of land in case society breaks down, but owning large swathes of land you cannot actively defend is pointless for these reasons. You depend on government to enforce rules of law to keep people off vast amounts of land. And it gets exponentially harder to defend land the more of it you have. This applies really to any resource though. Even your home could be taken away if the…

actually it becomes easier since the frontier length growth linearly and the surface proportionally to the square of some characteristic size of your plot. The other thing is that you can't do it yourself starting from some point, so you must hire somebody or establish a community protecting the land while living on some portion of it.

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#65

Post by [deleted] »

eloff wrote: post #39
mensetmanusman wrote: post #32

I have seen interactive data representations over time using NASA satellite databases: https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/147075/a-new-tool-f... It was amazing seeing the effect of political action on the satellite data: e.g. areas that were deemed okay (or not) to cut down were almost immediately protected (with lit borders to stop law-breakers) or destroyed. If Brazil becomes a failed state, of course the Ama…

> It’s an interesting thought experiment as to what it would take for the world to force protection with an external military force (e.g. this might be the only solution, but the chances of it happening are zero). Brazil would never tolerate that, nor should they. On the other hand if you want to buy huge tracts of the Amazon and pay private security forces to protect it, that's doable. Better though would be to make…

[deleted]

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#66

Post by InfiniteRand »

travisjungroth wrote: post #6

I spent the last 10 days in a hut on the edge of the Amazon and am in a hotel in Lima, waiting for my flight out of Peru. Seeing this story, I thought I'd add one brief first hand account. The jungle was noticeably cut down since I had last been there 7 months ago. What had been just a hiking trail to our camp had been widened to the size of a road by all the tree clearing. The trees are pretty thin and not the best…

I think the model of paying locals to preserve the land makes sense because of these concerns, of course you need to guarantee that some politician doesn't just pocket it all.

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#67

Post by Cipater »

saiya-jin wrote: post #59
ricardobeat wrote: post #48

You can thank the current right-wing government for letting deforestation get completely out of control, just after the country had finally got it down to okay-ish levels around 2012-2016. They’ve been systematically reducing funding, relaxing laws and enforcement, and pushing international preservation fund backers away. The rate at which things have degraded is insane. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/12…

I wouldn't claim Bolsonaro is right wing, he is just an arrogant corrupt scumbag who got to power. Unfortunately the world has seen quite a few of those recently, and the results are dire to say at least.

> I wouldn't claim Bolsonaro is right wing

Surely you jest?

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#68

Post by odopodo »

travisjungroth wrote: post #6

I spent the last 10 days in a hut on the edge of the Amazon and am in a hotel in Lima, waiting for my flight out of Peru. Seeing this story, I thought I'd add one brief first hand account. The jungle was noticeably cut down since I had last been there 7 months ago. What had been just a hiking trail to our camp had been widened to the size of a road by all the tree clearing. The trees are pretty thin and not the best…

Except the bulk of deforestation is not caused by locals needing space to live, but by big entrepreneurs investing in wood trafficking, soy plantations and livestock production.

Things like this:

https://twitter.com/Diogotapuio/status/1395723721369919488

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#69

Post by perfunctory »

beardbandit wrote: post #61
danparsonson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people who hire contract killers are not to blame? I don't understand this argument - saying "it's not our fault the cattle/hardwood logging/mining companies cut down the Amazon" is nonsense, that's been widely known about for decades and we (collectively) just bought more and more of this stuff. It's their fault and ours.

What good does blame do if the only thing that can potentially change the course is public policy? I find it a lot harder trying to convince everyone to change versus forcing everyone to change through policy and enforcement through government.

Well, how will that public policy and enforcement come about? We live in a democratic society, so the only way the government will enforce anything is if people demand it. And for people to demand it they need to be aware of the issue and what's causing it.

Re: Humanity Has Flipped the Amazon Forest from Carbon Sink to Source

#70

Post by bjourne »

danparsonson wrote: post #34
yodelshady wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract killers are responding to demand, but we don't let them legally practice their trade.

So people who hire contract killers are not to blame? I don't understand this argument - saying "it's not our fault the cattle/hardwood logging/mining companies cut down the Amazon" is nonsense, that's been widely known about for decades and we (collectively) just bought more and more of this stuff. It's their fault and ours.

If buying makes you an accomplice, wouldn't buying, say, Chinese or Israeli goods make you an accomplice to those regimes' human rights abuses? How far do you think customer responsibility goes?
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