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Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

polygon.com

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Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#171

Post by taneq »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #118
Spooky23 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They loosened up the rules on this stuff awhile back. It’s bullshit — unregulated gambling. There’s one machine like this I saw on a mass pike rest stop… there’s a 10 year old iPad fading away in there, but people are always playing it.

It could be the other way around: people win it so frequently that they can only afford to stock it with obsolete computer hardware…

I'd have thought it would be harder and more expensive to find an unused 10 year old iPad now than to just buy a new low-end one. Give it a few more years and that one in the machine will be a collector's item!

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#172

Post by technothrasher »

goguy wrote: post #136
Y_Y wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some people (especially kids) do assume they're fair, and nobody around is inclined to disabuse them of that notion.

The parents/guardians?

Even with a parent, the draw is just too attractive for kids. I tried desperately to explain to my kid that these games were rigged against him. He didn't believe me, didn't care, told me all his friends said they won, got angry at me for trying to take away his fun... He gets it now at 15, but at 6 there was no convincing him.

At least the carnival midway games these days have mostly switched from rigged against the kids to everybody wins a crappy prize. But these arcade game types are straight up gambling for children.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#173

Post by skhr0680 »

laumars wrote: post #148
rubyn00bie wrote: post #63

Oh, I thought this was known. I'm not even joking... A few years ago, I was at a local comic shop, and I watched someone (a kid) play the machine and appear to get a "perfect" shot, key went exactly into the fucking hole... but then it just pulled back. No prize! I was stunned when the kid asked an employee essentially "WTF?" and the employee replied "there's a chance the key may not turn even though it's lined up."…

I wish modern arcades were banned. They’re nothing more than fruit machines that target kids. There’s no thought about enjoyment, it’s literally about the fastest way to hook a child. I know the arcades of old weren’t exactly innocent either, with many being optimised to consume the players coins, but at least there was some game play involved. At least the player got something out of the experience. I feel the ethic…

Console games were so polluted with arcade bullshit design (see: Battletoads) that Super Mario World was instantly notable for being designed to be fair.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#174

Post by skhr0680 »

raverbashing wrote: post #159
29athrowaway wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is illegal in Japan so there are many forms of gambling disguised as other stuff. Notably pachinko parlors, gashapon, trading card games, loot boxes in video games. https://www.serkantoto.com/2012/05/05/japan-social-games-reg... And other than gambling, there are auctions... for the weirdest stuff... koi fish, mango, etc. https://www.kodamakoifarm.com/shop/live-koi/auction/

So, what's the business model of koi auctions? I mean, ok, for the seller side it's obvious, for the buyer one, not so much.

Who wouldn’t want a sweet Koi?

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#175

Post by 29athrowaway »

raverbashing wrote: post #159
29athrowaway wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is illegal in Japan so there are many forms of gambling disguised as other stuff. Notably pachinko parlors, gashapon, trading card games, loot boxes in video games. https://www.serkantoto.com/2012/05/05/japan-social-games-reg... And other than gambling, there are auctions... for the weirdest stuff... koi fish, mango, etc. https://www.kodamakoifarm.com/shop/live-koi/auction/

So, what's the business model of koi auctions? I mean, ok, for the seller side it's obvious, for the buyer one, not so much.

Some koi patterns are culturally more desirable and rarer. The koi auction is a way for people to acquire a rare koi.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#176

Post by Uberphallus »

bgarbiak wrote: post #170
psyc wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is random claw machines a recent scam? About 30 years ago, my siblings and I went through a claw machine mania phase. We sampled every machine in a 30 mile radius, and found that the ones that slipped, always slipped. And the ones that gripped, gripped pretty frequently. Once we figured out which claws would actually grab, we won constantly. We collected around 50 stuffed animals over the course of a year. Or maybe w…

I’d assume so. Back in primary school I got a friend who was pretty much perfect at claw machines (and at Tekken). Later I’ve noticed they made it more difficult (shorter timelimit, limited number of moves, etc.), but never expected they would turn this into a vulgar scam.

Most machines I've seen can be configured at least on 3 parameters (names might be diferent):

-Base grip power

-Improved grip power

-Probability of improved grip.

Some have two actuators with different powers, some actually introduce a delay in the grip with a single actuator, and so on, so it might be not exactly like that.

What I mean, they're set up according to the wishes of the operator. Sometimes it's the same as the owner of the venue, sometimes the venue rents the space to the operator.

So it's totally normal to find some that are more skill-based than others, even within the same manufacturer and model.

Story time: a friend worked in an arcade/bowling venue in the early 2000s, they had 3 machines, and changed the settings weekly to extract more money. Basically one of the machines had higher probabilities just at the level of breaking even, but that was enough to have someone stick around for longer and attract other customers to the other two. The week after those who had "luck" that came back would stick to the same to show off (and fail). Occasionally short queues for certain machines appeared.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#177

Post by technothrasher »

Bluecobra wrote: post #14
Cerealkiller050 wrote: post #2

I remember seeing and playing this on a cruise ship. It was a dollar per try, and I shoved in 5 bucks. By the 4th try it was NOTICEABLE that if you press the button at the "right time", there was a lag before it overshot it and you failed. I pretty much could guess that something like the article discusses was at work, and was simply more a game of luck. Obviously I stopped after that, as a pure luck game is not as f…

I played this in a cruise casino as well, knowing full well that the odds were stacked against me in international waters. I didn’t win. Near the end of the 10 day voyage the machine was mostly empty, I wonder if anyone actually won or they just removed the cash to make it look like it’s a winner.

Like any gambling, you always want people to see others winning. It makes people more likely to play. You just want to make sure that the payout is always some percentage of the take and no more.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#178

Post by simonh »

Uberphallus wrote: post #131
TeMPOraL wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why class action lawsuit then. Shouldn't this be prosecuted as a crime?

They're certainly scummy but, I mean, this isn't any different from the claw crane machines that are usually exempted from gambling laws under certain conditions (win chance, prize value, where they're located, etc); machines that nobody expects to be fair.

I think there's a difference between a a game with a skill element and a random chance element that are always consistent, and one where the game arbitrarily decides that because someone won 200 tries ago nobody playing now is allowed to win.

I understand that with the claw machine the claw is unreliable, but the same claw is always equally unreliable and each time I play I could actually win, and my skill does affect that chance. With these games most of the time when you play there is a zero chance you could win, no mater how well you play.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#179

Post by seanhunter »

jerrre wrote: post #156
seanhunter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're Jonathan Schrantz, who famously beat stockfish on the hardest difficulty as black by playing the Stafford gambit. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27829913 That being said it doesn't work with Stockfish 12. But yeah dressing what is essentially a pure con (I don't think these even count as games of luck given the payout is not fair from game to game) as a game o skill is terrible.

Your link goes to this current page, I assumed you were linking to an article about that anecdote.

That's annoying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6miHXytFWQ is the original. He has done some followups.

For non-chess people, the Stafford is pretty dubious but very trappy.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#180

Post by mafuy »

Caylio wrote: post #105
HarryHirsch wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skill when the machine decides to let you win, no chance when the machine doesn't want you to. It's not at all like poker and very much like the well-known shell game with a pea.

The machine can only "decide to let you win" if you have the skill to get close, otherwise no chance.

One gives you a chance to win when you are skillful. If you are skillful enough, you will win eventually just by chance.

The other may never pay out even if you are 100% accurate.

This is a big difference.

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