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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#631

Post by stevenicr »

nyokodo wrote: post #584
avidiax wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not a coincidence, but it is certainly complicated. Damaged kids become damaged adults, and if they realize it, they may decide that they wouldn't be good parents and rightly opt-out of it. Children that didn't have the right opportunities, whether that's their parent's fault or not may not have enough achievement as an adult to take on the burden of being a parent. One can argue whether it is harder…

> but you can't argue that being a parent requires lots of resources in both time and money I know enough parents doing fine for their kids without much money and even less time that I’ll have to contradict you. It’s infinitely better to be alive than have stuff or even ample parent time. I can attest to that from personal experience. In the short term it’s certainly convenient to avoid having kids as having kids is…

My first thought was to disagree and push the small datapoint thing - but I suppose it varies greatly based upon location in the world, and what the definition of 'fine (for their kids)' is.

In some places kids can play outside and have a village of school connected people / things to get through just fine.

I guess it's also easier to do fine if you have church groups to help, and some places have other community that can help I am guessing. Perhaps that mall in Beverly Hills is a fine babysitter and teacher of life lessons - the malls around other parts of the country stopped being good for that some years ago.

I also feel that fine is also a gamble.

You might get affordable child care that does not abuse your kids and you might get a school system that teaches them life fine.. but you may not, and if you don't have the time to find out, or the money to change things drastically - you are essentially gambling with an innocent's life.

Again I feel this varies quite a bit from location to location and situation to situation. But I don't feel it is right to suggest the choice is putting themselves first - at least not in all circumstances, and I'd guess it's not the main factor in most of these conscious choices.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#632

Post by plandis »

laurent92 wrote: post #526
avidiax wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not a coincidence, but it is certainly complicated. Damaged kids become damaged adults, and if they realize it, they may decide that they wouldn't be good parents and rightly opt-out of it. Children that didn't have the right opportunities, whether that's their parent's fault or not may not have enough achievement as an adult to take on the burden of being a parent. One can argue whether it is harder…

Long story short, I don’t call my parents precisely because I’m childless. Failing my love life has everything to do with them. It’s not like I were divorced. I’m precisely never married, never had a long girlfriend, despite not being ugly nor totally stupid, and my loneliness drove me crazy (in the literal sense – since Covid I’ve honestly snapped a few neurons, so it’s quite over for me). But before that, I used to…

I won’t claim to understand your situation but as someone whose parents both died before I hit puberty, I can assure you it’s possible to find love on your own — I say this as someone currently happily married and expecting a child. I wish you the best of luck, you have the power to change your own life :)

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#633

Post by wonderwonder »

anthk wrote: post #543
wonderwonder wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very much not specific to the Jewish religion. Jews make up 0.2% of the world population while ~33% of the worlds males are circumcised. Its very much a part of the Islamic religion as well; being nearly universal in the middle east. In addition ~80% of American men are circumcised.

That doesn't happen in Europe, Japan or China.

True but 78% of South Korean 20 year old men are circumcised, a relatively new phenomenon in the country but something that has clearly taken hold and appears to be a new normal. 90% of the Philippine's are circumcised so its not a strictly non Asian tradition.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#634

Post by wonderwonder »

sudosysgen wrote: post #612
nsxwolf wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that I'm circumcised and every male I know is, and none of us even give it a second thought or feel that our genitals have been "mutilated", I would say it requires a bit of sucking. There has to be some existing dissatisfaction or disorder for someone to get so up in arms about that. Anyway, it was an example I saw, I had intended to remain neutral on the subject.

The fact that other people went through it too is a horrible, horrible metric for something being okay, and I think buying into that is its own form of sucking.

I am circumcised and pretty happy with it, has nothing to do with it happening to other people. It is not a horrible thing that happened to me, its just my penis and me and everyone else that has encountered it seem to like it. The fact that you are determined to think that I and others like me (the majority of American, middle eastern, south korean and other men) should feel assaulted or upset about it is an issue in and of itself. You appear to have a narrative you are trying to push.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#635

Post by iimblack »

jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

When my son was born I finally realized that my dad is just a bad person and he won’t change. I used to try to rationalize the things he did. My mom refuses to leave or do anything that might cause trouble. I decided to just cut the relationship to my parents off. For me, at best, family are just people I happened to know when I was younger.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#636

Post by warmcat »

xwolfi wrote: post #580
warmcat wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its just me...I have been staying away from my parents in a different country since the last 13 years. With a wife and a toddler, I still feel uneasy if I don't speak to my parents twice a day. Even though we don't have much to talk about every day, it's just the feeling of seeing them and hearing their voice which calms me down.

Twice a day wow, I text them twice a week and I can go a month without anything. I ve been abroad 7 years myself and I could not survive with such a need for contact. Did you follow someone ?

Not sure what you mean by follow someone. Everyone is different though. I am very close to my parents and now since they are getting old, I feel I should at least talk to them every day if not meet them.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#637

Post by pempem »

themacguffinman wrote: post #620
6f8986c3 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point, we have to stop looking to our parents, and take responsibility for our own lives. Until we can do that, we aren't really adults. That's what sets adults and children apart: responsibility. Children are not responsible for their own lives; rather, they live under the guardianship of adults. Adults are responsible. And it is a hate crime that we have probably two generations in the West that have been r…

These children, now adults, have stopped looking to their parents. They've estranged them. I'd say in many cases, that's the responsible thing to do. If a close friend told you that their BF/GF abused them and asked you what was the responsible thing to do, would you not tell them that they should first remove themselves from their abuser? Is it not precisely the responsible and independent choice for a victim to lea…

I agree with you. Abuse is a serious allegation and a traumatic experience.

And yet there are so many levels and shades to abuse. Just like the errors we see in the products and programs we build. We have to ask if it was malicious, neglect or ignorance. The longer we live the more I ask myself whether large swaths of that low level trauma I endured was malicious or their own timeline to grow up, be better, realize their mistakes. Not fair, but also true.

My mother is not the same person she was when I was 12/16/22 and I'm glad we had space, but never truly cut ties despite how painful it was for so many years.

We aren't all afforded the same time, space, community to mature.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#638

Post by throwaway290232 »

And sometimes children feel too much responsibility for their parents’ happiness. I often hear estranged adult children request better boundaries from their parents as a condition of reconciliation. As Andrew Solomon wrote in Far From the Tree, “There is no contradiction between loving someone and feeling burdened by that person. Indeed, love tends to magnify the burden.”

Holy shit, this. I thought I was crazy for feeling emotionally blackmailed by my parents. They effectively told me that if I wasn't a constant part of their lives, they would be miserable - after things like blaming an episode of depression on my poor academic performance. At the same time being callous and judgemental towards me, and each other. I'm just surprised that they expected me to stick around?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#639

Post by solipsism »

kixiQu wrote: post #379
Angostura wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I went to university, my parents simply asked me to call them once a week on Sunday at around 10am, which I did pretyt much every week and carried on doing for the rest of their lives until they died a couple of years ago in their 90s. The calls were pretty consequential and really not verty long, quite often just 20 minutes but over the years they morphed from the being worried about me, to me being worried abo…

It's much better to communicate that you'd like a routine like this than to try to have irregular contact that you'll both have to think about and plan for. I have a weekly video call for my mom and it's very good for us.

Speak for yourself. My family is busy, and we don't like to plan -- we just decide to do something and do it. So a scheduled routine would feel like a horrible anchor to us.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#640

Post by nyokodo »

stevenicr wrote: post #631
nyokodo wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you can't argue that being a parent requires lots of resources in both time and money I know enough parents doing fine for their kids without much money and even less time that I’ll have to contradict you. It’s infinitely better to be alive than have stuff or even ample parent time. I can attest to that from personal experience. In the short term it’s certainly convenient to avoid having kids as having kids is…

My first thought was to disagree and push the small datapoint thing - but I suppose it varies greatly based upon location in the world, and what the definition of 'fine (for their kids)' is. In some places kids can play outside and have a village of school connected people / things to get through just fine. I guess it's also easier to do fine if you have church groups to help, and some places have other community tha…

> You might get affordable child care that does not abuse your kids and you might get a school system that teaches them life fine.. but you may not

If your response to child abuse, a lack of affordable childcare, and ok schooling is that the children shouldn't exist, you've lost me.

> you are essentially gambling with an innocent's life.

You lose all bets you don't make. Life is a gamble full-stop so you are always gambling when you bring a life into the world. My main point is that there is a whole lot more room to maneuver for many childless couples from a purely practical point of view before it'd be established that having children were irresponsible for them. People have way too high expectations and a lot of ulterior motives that are the real barriers. One way to look at it is, what would you do to help them if you children already existed? Would you move somewhere cheaper/safer/closer to family? Would you sacrifice your career? Would you lower your standard of living? Would you sacrifice your lifestyle? If the answer to any of those is "no" (be honest now) then you've discovered an important part of your true motivations.

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