A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#361

Post by wonderwonder » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #202

nsxwolf wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years back there was a movement on Facebook with groups called "Survivors of Narcissistic Parents" and similar that encouraged people to cut off their parents. It seemed wildly popular and had tons of engagement. People would diagnose their parents with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, discuss how every problem in their lives could be traced to their parents, and that was that. I've also saw more than one per…

> anticircumcision movement This is one of those things that is specific to the Jewish religion, in which it serves as an irreversible symbol of membership and has done for about three thousand years ... and also a subset of Americans, who do it for reasons which they suddenly find difficult to explain to their adult children. If it's important for adult life, but not actually urgent, leave it until the child is old…

It is very much not specific to the Jewish religion. Jews make up 0.2% of the world population while ~33% of the worlds males are circumcised. Its very much a part of the Islamic religion as well; being nearly universal in the middle east. In addition ~80% of American men are circumcised.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#362

Post by aidenn0 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

notabee wrote: post #232

samatman wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you've never had someone accusing you of hurting them when you didn't? The optimal move is to disengage rather than argue, but I assure you that mandating that people "own" whatever spurious accusation is thrown their way just opens up a rich avenue for passive-aggressive abuse. Your contrasting the textual source with the general connotation is exactly the concept drift referenced by the post you're replying…

I have indeed been accused when I didn't agree with the objective harm caused. Thankfully, I typically didn't further escalate the situation and act like a jerk by denying their perception of the issue. Just because you don't immediately mount a fiery defense doesn't mean that you own their position, their feelings, or have to agree with them. This is emotional intelligence 101. Typically a quiet, non-escalated discu…

> narrow definition of conscious, machiavellian attempts to dispute concrete facts

My understanding of gaslighting is that it was never about disputing concrete facts; it was about controlling the person by making them doubt their sanity. We already have a word for conscious Machiavellian attempts to dispute concrete facts: "lying."

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#363

Post by hellbannedguy » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

"It was only much later that I found out that she basically cried for three days straight after that call."

That got me crying.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#364

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

shadowoflight wrote: post #229

samatman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#365

Post by ponow » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

mleonhard wrote: post #288

gpt5 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment you stop blaming others on your faults is the moment you'll start improving.

Why do you assume that I'm not improving? I started improving after I took a free 10-day meditation course (the Goenka one), four years ago. At the course, I gained the ability to notice changes in my emotions and mental state. Suddenly, I could see when my mind switches to a judgmental attitude. I began intentionally trying to prevent the switch. I also intentionally restrain myself if I do switch into that mode. Ch…

Despite my half century and having repeatedly listened to and ruminated about "being judgemental", I can't fully fault "making judgements", for without judgement we have no comparison of worse vs better, and without that we have no basis for improvement. At issue mostly is _hasty_ judgement, uninformed, and without humility of all the potential and unknowable errors in judgement. But we definitely must judge, or stagnate.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#366

Post by koolba » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #167

GavinMcG wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in to…

Resentment arises from a gap between expectations and reality. Maybe the problem is the idealized expectations. And talking about things doesn’t help that. Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality.

> Kids need to learn that life sucks and then you die and really internalize that in order to bring expectations in line with reality.

I'm convinced that the world is cleanly divided into two categories of people. People that internalize this early in life, and people that never do at all.

Along with learning to be bored, it's the most important life lesson you can pass on to the next generation to ensure a happy productive life.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#367

Post by ceilingcorner » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #360

ceilingcorner wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many scholars have posited that a global thermonuclear war with Cold War-era stockpiles, or even with the current smaller stockpiles, may lead to human extinction. This position was bolstered when nuclear winter was first conceptualized and modelled in 1983. However, models from the past decade consider total extinction very unlikely, and suggest parts of the world would remain habitable.[25] Technically the risk may…

We might live but we wouldn't live well and our long term prospects would be dim.

The claim was “extinction event.”

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#368

Post by nsxwolf » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

Tade0 wrote: post #158

nsxwolf wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years back there was a movement on Facebook with groups called "Survivors of Narcissistic Parents" and similar that encouraged people to cut off their parents. It seemed wildly popular and had tons of engagement. People would diagnose their parents with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, discuss how every problem in their lives could be traced to their parents, and that was that. I've also saw more than one per…

> after being sucked in to the anticircumcision movement Did it take a lot of sucking into considering that they've been subjected to genital mutilation?

Considering that I'm circumcised and every male I know is, and none of us even give it a second thought or feel that our genitals have been "mutilated", I would say it requires a bit of sucking. There has to be some existing dissatisfaction or disorder for someone to get so up in arms about that.

Anyway, it was an example I saw, I had intended to remain neutral on the subject.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#369

Post by brightball » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #286

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

This reminds me of a friend who has gone through some bad life experiences. She once told me that "everything happens for a reason" is the kind of garbage only said by people who have never had bad things happen to them. Yes, dealing with adversity can teach us things and make us stronger. But there are limits, and adversity can also do permanent mental and emotional damage. The latter outcome is way more common than…

Just as a couple of counter points to that phrase (to people who say and and those who hear it), because I know a lot of people hate hearing it.

People saying it are trying to impart hope on the people that they are saying it to. If you believe that everything happens for a reason, this will be a comforting reminder even though you're going through something awful. It's intended to remind people of the countless stories of individuals and groups of people who have suffered only to find out later that such suffering prepared them to make a difference later in life.

For some, this could mean that a tragedy in your life will leave you prepared to help others who are going through something similar later in life.

It's not intended as a dismissal of your pain. It's only to say that one day, the lessons you learn from this pain may help you to help others or yourself.

Simple examples:

- You lose a loved one to a horrible disease but then organize people to fund research to cure the disease, grow up to become a doctor or help support people coping with it

- You get dumped in a relationship and you're devastated, but on reflection you realize things about yourself that you need to work on, make real changes in yourself and later meet the love of your life

It's not meant to be dismissive.

On the flip side, for people who throw this phrase around you need to know that it gives the impression that God is controlling everything like some type of puppet master without any free will or random occurrences in the world.

The Bible doesn't reflect that perspective at all. It's worth the read to understand it better.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#370

Post by NoImmatureAdHom » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

Don't forget "trauma"!