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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

theatlantic.com

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#341

Post by bigbillheck »

mbg721 wrote: post #72
octostone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On mobile so I can’t look now, but from what I recall the people who have looked into it (and quite a few have) find that the causal relationship goes in the other direction, at least in the US —- young people have abandoned religion because of religions treatment of homosexuals, women (including access to abortion), and, for white evangelicals, their treatment of racial minorities. Religious organizations in the US…

Isn't that abandonment of religion exactly the same estrangement that the article is talking about? The sexual revolution is all about realizing an identity built around personal growth and happiness; the young people who have bought into that idea have high expectations of religion, but get disillusioned with these organizations' failings and cut them off.

'The' sexual revolution (i.e. the big one) started in the 60s and pretty much stopped in the early 80s (you can probably guess the reason; it's usually spelled with 3 or 4 letters, depending). That's far enough ago that children born afterwards are old enough to have estranged children of their own. (For an anecdote, which is of course the singular of 'data', I have a close relative born in the late 70s who is already a grandparent).

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#342

Post by LordHumungous »

jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

Yeah it does seem like many of the "no contact" people are themselves childless. I doubt this is a coincidence.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#343

Post by ponow »

giantg2 wrote: post #271
lazide wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the posters background, they may have just not taken it into account. One challenge with abuse on all these fronts is that there is a huge amount of grey area in all of them, and judgement that would need to be drawn on what is and is not abuse. Sometimes/often it is REALLY clear cut (yeah, someone doing munchausen by proxy on their kids, or beating them, or whatever is clearly abuse). Other times, you'll…

The thing about abuse is that it has to be excessive or misuse of some power. Generally, mental abuse should require that the person being abused say that they don't like whatever is being said and for what is being said to be objectively meant to harm them (serve no legitimate purpose, phrased vulgarly). If it does serve a legitimate purpose and was delivered in a decent way, then I don't see how that could be abuse…

"Protected" vs "unprotected" speech: The distinction itself is an abomination, papering over a more subjective reality.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#344

Post by burgessaccount »

gruez wrote: post #324
zwieback wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my pet theory is that there were two major shifts in human societies: nomadic to settlers and barter to money - everything else is details. Of course I'm an engineer and know next to nothing about anthropology.

>and barter to money >Of course I'm an engineer and know next to nothing about anthropology. You're probably wrong here. >There is no evidence, historical or contemporary, of a society in which barter is the main mode of exchange;[32] instead, non-monetary societies operated largely along the principles of gift economy and debt.[33][34][35] When barter did in fact occur, it was usually between either complete strange…

“Barter” may not be the best term for it, but until the 18th/19th century (varied a lot by location), most people procured the physical goods they needed through their own family’s effort (subsistence); through in-kind payments and mutual exchange (old contracts used to specify that people would be paid in firewood, or candles…); and through favors. The switch from that model to a model of surplus and specialization, where people were paid in cash which could then be exchanged for any number of products, procured from distant places and from strangers, was indeed one of the most dramatic transformations in human history. I think we still don’t appreciate how much it shook up our old systems, and we blame things like divorce rates or child estrangement on newfangled values or bad morals when in fact they are a natural result of structural changes.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#345

Post by ericmcer »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #108
throwaway23429 wrote: post #67

I was estranged from my parents, and I am also in the process of adopting a child. This led me to think a lot about the sort of relationship I want with my children, versus what my parents and I have. I believe my parents had me because they feel like it was their duty, and they fulfilled their parental obligations fairly well in that regard. The trouble is that they didn't consider what it was like to have an adult…

You’re almost living my life! My parents were less than thrilled with who I grew up to be. I think they would’ve been mildly happy if I married the first person I met and settled in their neighborhood, living out a life that fit into theirs. I’m sure that they would’ve found faults, but at least they could brag about how good of parents they were.

I have a specific memory of visiting home in my early 20s and going to get groceries with my mom. In the checkout line was another mother with her grown son, but he had some kind of developmental disability and clearly still relied on her. My mom made some comment about how that would be nice which always cracked me up. She didn't just want me to settle down close to her but wanted some sort of eternal-child she could core for forever. That said she was an ok mom, just had kids in her late teenage years and never developed a strong identity outside of being a parent.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#346

Post by msbarnett »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #340
msbarnett wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely none of “climate change, nuclear war, biological warfare” constitute a natural disaster, nor has this quasi-neo-confucian conception of societal cohesion via filial piety historically triumphed over anything worse than any of these modern extinction scenarios.

None of those things would result in the complete extinction of human beings. The Black Death was pretty horrible and yet European society still exists.

I’m not going to bother arguing about it, but suffice to say I don’t share your sunny optimism vis-a-vis nuclear holocaust.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#347

Post by kbenson »

SamPatt wrote: post #328
kbenson wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every once in a while I read something the so obviously resonates with me as how things should be with me, but not how things are, that it's depressing and humbling. That's good though, because that's how change happens. Excuse me, I need to go make some calls and set some alarms now.

Do it. I lost both my parents in my late 20s. I didn't have the level of contact with them the last few years that I wish I had, partially because I assumed I've have time for that when they retired. They didn't make it.

Already did! :) Yeah, way past my 20's, which is all the more reason to make sure I keep in touch. They're both getting up there in age (although admittedly my dad is probably in better shape than me...)

Sorry for your loss. I'm at the age where I've lost a few of my good friends now, and it never feels like you had enough time.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#348

Post by rayiner »

dabbledash wrote: post #222
Apocryphon wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to wonder if that identity is the final refuge of generations that feel helpless and worse-off than prior ones.

Which suggests maybe we aren’t doing a good job teaching history.

Or current events.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#349

Post by ceilingcorner »

msbarnett wrote: post #346
ceilingcorner wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those things would result in the complete extinction of human beings. The Black Death was pretty horrible and yet European society still exists.

I’m not going to bother arguing about it, but suffice to say I don’t share your sunny optimism vis-a-vis nuclear holocaust.

Many scholars have posited that a global thermonuclear war with Cold War-era stockpiles, or even with the current smaller stockpiles, may lead to human extinction. This position was bolstered when nuclear winter was first conceptualized and modelled in 1983. However, models from the past decade consider total extinction very unlikely, and suggest parts of the world would remain habitable.[25] Technically the risk may not be zero, as the climatic effects of nuclear war are uncertain and could theoretically be larger than current models suggest, just as they could theoretically be smaller than current models suggest. There could also be indirect risks, such as a societal collapse following nuclear war that can make humanity much more vulnerable to other existential threats

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_holocaust

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#350

Post by gBszkp6V »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #340
msbarnett wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely none of “climate change, nuclear war, biological warfare” constitute a natural disaster, nor has this quasi-neo-confucian conception of societal cohesion via filial piety historically triumphed over anything worse than any of these modern extinction scenarios.

None of those things would result in the complete extinction of human beings. The Black Death was pretty horrible and yet European society still exists.

Why did you just shift the goalposts from societal collapse to complete human extinction?
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