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Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

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Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#151
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same way that when you open a store you can't pick and choose your customers. But you can mostly pick and choose your customers outside of discriminating against a protect class (in the US). If you don't want to do business with people with brown hair, no one is stopping you.

> Same way that when you open a store you can't pick and choose your customers. But you can mostly pick and choose your customers outside of discriminating against a protect class (in the US). If you don't want to do business with people with brown hair, no one is stopping you. "genetic information" is a protected class, so you could not discriminate against anyone based on their natural hair color. You could however…

Has that been tested in court?

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does YouTube's TOS really not contain statements giving them the ability to stop hosting any video, at any time, for any reason? The highest court in Germany (for civil and criminal proceedings) wrote this in one of their rulings: > Depending on the circumstances, especially if private companies - as in this case - move into a dominant position and take over the provision of the framework conditions of public commu…

This is as it should be IMO. When you position yourself to be a de-facto public square, you shouldn't get to selectively operate like a private club when it suits you.

Seems like Germany should simply nationalize the platform if that's what they want.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their only winning move was to stay neutral and do nothing but comply with legal requests. No? This narrative is a bit ahistorical - and it's fueled by this idea that hyperliberal boogeyman started censoring everything. If you look at what happened in 2017, Google started "censoring" things because advertisers threatened to boycott . The platforms couldn't stay neutral because advertisers became more and more conce…

They (Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, even Reddit) act so very much like publishers that it seems to me the mistake was granting "platform" protections to sites that: claim broad rights over posted content; use complex logic to decide what to promote (that they promote anything is alarming, for a "platform"!) and what a visitor sees while also hosting and distributing that content they're highlighting or promoting (which…

The whole point of section 230 was to make imperfect moderation legal. It wasn't enacted because some random personal sites got sued. It got enacted because some very large companies got sued and congress thought the results of the court cases were illogical.

It sounds like it's doing its job.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#154
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does YouTube's TOS really not contain statements giving them the ability to stop hosting any video, at any time, for any reason? The highest court in Germany (for civil and criminal proceedings) wrote this in one of their rulings: > Depending on the circumstances, especially if private companies - as in this case - move into a dominant position and take over the provision of the framework conditions of public commu…

Is this not in direct conflict with the quote from the article / OP. The summary should have this been “regardless of the the contract, we hold that …” which is different from the aforementioned quote: > The German court held that YouTube failed to make its enforcement authority clear in its contract with the account operator who posted the video.

The OP is about the ruling of a lower court though. I guess they didn't even reach the fundamental question.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#155
post #40
post #8

Naval Ravikant seems to be a divisive figure here but I think he made a profound point when he discussed this topic on Joe Rogan's podcast. The point was that, as a platform, you cross a line which is very difficult to ever revert when you optionally censor your platform in response to political pressure because both sides are then forced from a game theory perspective to aggressively pursue censoring your platform i…

> They caved to censoring things that were reasonable, but now anyone can make them censor anything as long as they have some poltical power somewhere. Can you define "reasonable" here in an objective way that we could all agree on? There's no such thing as neutrality. Leaving up a popular anti-vax video is just as political a decision as taking it down.

Science isn't politics and the truth about scientific issues isn't political, but misinformation about issues in which there exists a scientific consensus is very definitely political.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#156
post #137
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no avoiding this even if you don't " censor your platform in response to political pressure " because everyone assumes that is the case and the game is on... It's not a case of deciding to: >optionally censor your platform in response to political pressure Because so many people assume that if some content is removed and it is well then that must have been because of political pressure or views at that compan…

Right this is the entire point about how crossing the line poisons the well. Which is why they would have to be very clear that their policy is to only respond to legal orders for takedowns and nothing else.

I think the issue then is that the platform becomes ... unusable.

The scale of spam of all kinds would render the service useless. Even inaction would be interpreted as part of the game ... and you're in the game again.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#157
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So users who troll and harass other users, spam, post hateful content, etc. should never be banned? That's just leads to a precipitous decline in quality and drives other users away. Why would I want to spend my leisure time on a platform filled with 13 year-old shouting racial slurs?

Let the people decide. HN deals with this well enough.

[deleted]

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#158

Good. I'd rather live in chaos than a world controlled by these technocrats. Let's do Twitter while we're at it.

Losing control is what big social wants. The more they are regulated, the more intimate they are with the government, the safer and more entrenched their status. They already enjoy network effects and lock-in of their users; more rules widen the moat around the established players who got huge in the early unregulated days.

Saying things like "big social" does not make your argument more persuasive. It just makes you sound like part of the lunatic fringe. It also leaves people like me rather confused about what your point was in the first sentence.

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#159
post #8

Naval Ravikant seems to be a divisive figure here but I think he made a profound point when he discussed this topic on Joe Rogan's podcast. The point was that, as a platform, you cross a line which is very difficult to ever revert when you optionally censor your platform in response to political pressure because both sides are then forced from a game theory perspective to aggressively pursue censoring your platform i…

I was with you until the very end, when I feel like you threw away the argument by seemingly being open to "legal requests"; the "political wars" you get dragged into tend to be from politicians that are certainly making "legal requests": hell, if they aren't legal, they change the law!

I feel like the core problem in many cases was building a system where someone gets to be arbiter of content in the first place: Apple claims they take software down due to "legal requests" by/in various countries (though this is a lie as they also do it anti-competitively or for market perception reasons, but even taking them at their word here) and yet they caused the ability to do that as somehow Android devices sold in the same jurisdictions support installing arbitrary software without issue.

Platforms like Twitter and YouTube make their problems worse by recommending content--which is entirely their editorial decision and should be seen as such: any benefits or costs, moral or legal, should fall squarely on their shoulders--and then conflating that with having the ability to publish, but they would be in a much more morally (and often legally) defensible position if they simply didn't actively recommend content they disliked but still let it be found by people who actively followed the publisher.

Regardless, as usual, I will now link to my heavily-cited talk (every single slide is inherently a citation from a reputable news source) that I gave in 2017 (maybe 2018? the video was unlisted and I only just recently made it public as someone noted I had never done that, and now the upload date is weirdly set to last week ;P) at Mozilla Privacy Lab--"That's How You Get a Dystopia"--wherein I push hard at the idea that centralized systems and the arbiters they empower are the core problem and never work out, even if you like some of their decisions for some of the time.

https://youtu.be/vsazo-Gs7ms

Re: Germany fines YouTube for removing video of anti-lockdown protest

#160
post #103
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why did "advertisers threatened to boycott" due to pressure from "hyperliberal's" that are prputally offended by everything. They tried to get YT to do it, when YT ignored them they went after the money... It is right from the liberal playbook

Consumers objecting to content is as old as television, and even older, and is certainly not owned by "hyperliberals." For example, Conservatives demanded radio stations stop playing the Beatles, and, only slightly more recently, the Dixie Chicks. They called up advertisers as well. You could probably find people complaining to artists' patrons in Medieval texts, if you looked.

If you look at people on an axis other than liberal/conservative, you find that the people that object are the same people regardless of their politics. They're the people that can't stand the idea of other people seeing reading/hearing/seeing things, that they themselves wouldn't want to. It's the people that are hurt and scared when they see behavior that is actually harmless to them, but maybe spotlights a difference they don't want to be aware of.

Saying that liberals or conservatives have this to a greater or worse extent is looking at it through the wrong lens.

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