Live data from Hacker News

Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

usehaystack.io

301–308 of 308 posts

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How much of the workload is just the dev shortage/insufficient staffing? ZERO PERCENT. Listen to me very closely. The quantity of people has ZERO IMPACT on your work quality. Well... maybe like 3%, but hear me out. Your manager has a HUGH impact on your work quality. The work that is given to you, your PERCEPTION of the work, the urgency of the work, your development opportunities (and your response to them), the p…

You're talking about quality, but what about quantity? If you need to develop: - the back end for an application - the front end for an application - some external APIs for the application - a structured data storage layer, say, with an RDBMS - an object storage of some sort, for example, on top of S3 - some sort of reporting functionality - mailing list functionality - etc. Then no matter how good your manager is, t…

It is a fundamental truth that there is more work to do than time available to do it. That this pressure lands on developers is really a perpetual management failure.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about quality, but what about quantity? If you need to develop: - the back end for an application - the front end for an application - some external APIs for the application - a structured data storage layer, say, with an RDBMS - an object storage of some sort, for example, on top of S3 - some sort of reporting functionality - mailing list functionality - etc. Then no matter how good your manager is, t…

Having many engineers causes changes to your engineering workflows and standards that make them a lot less productive, in order to cope with having so many engineers. Also, some of your many engineers will choose to spend their time creating internal platforms that are much worse than commercial and open-source alternatives, and since you are good collaborative synergistic team players you must always use the thing w…

> Creating a new backend endpoint requires a multi-week design review process and must be implemented in a straight-jacket of a programming language with 90% test coverage and tons of layers and extensive mocks of each layer.

Or perhaps an hour or so long meeting, in which the overall design is discussed so everyone is vaguely on the same page and the rest is handled when reviewing the merge request and/or as Slack messages in the appropriate channels, as necessary. Heck, shoot a message to the business analysts and maybe have a 5-10 minute conversation to clear up any of the stuff that you don't understand.

> Creating a new frontend requires the same multi-week design review process, and must use the Nth incarnation of our NIH Javascript framework. The developer who built it got promoted and then left; it's been handed over to India to maintain. So anytime anything goes wrong, post a question to the framework maintainer's slack channel and wait to hear back in the morning. Or don't. They're just as mystified by it as you are.

Or use the exact same approach as above, with whatever was used in the other components of the system, for familiarity's sake. Some vaguely recent version of Vue? Sure, go ahead! Maybe even copy some bits that don't feel like they should be shared code and could change in the future, but that'll be easy to reuse for now.

> Creating new external APIs requires, ironically, no design review but you must use the shitty homegrown code generation tool to generate a PR to add your endpoints to the API gateway. The builds on this PR take 4 hours. Then after it's merged you can wait for the API gateway to be deployed later this week. You must repeat this process any time the schema changes.

Quite on the contrary - it's just an API that perhaps needs a bit more attention from the security specialists and some additional scanning here and there. Knock it out, give it to others to test and fix any of the problems that they find. Builds might take around 5-15 minutes.

> Creating a new RDBMS table goes through a theoretically self-service workflow hosted by the RDBMS team but probably one step fails so you need to file a ticket and wait for them to fix it before your table is provisioned and ACLs dialed in.

Or, you know, are integrated as a migration file within the application, that will automatically get applied to the testing/staging/prod databases when the changes land in the environment. Maybe even use a local DB instance for breaking changes inside of a Docker container, so that you can discard any of the stuff that you break.

> In-house object storage implements an S3 compatible API but you must submit a ticket with a detailed description of your use case and wait a week or two to get provisioned.

Or just add whatever software you need to a Docker Swarm + Ansible deployment on your company's servers and have it be up there in a matter of minutes. Maybe grab a coffee, because rerunning parts of Ansible playbooks is sometimes a bit hard, but procrastinating for 10 minutes never hurt anyone. Then test whether everything works in your development environments and let the people responsible for accept testing, security and prod deployments handle the rest.

> If your email is static or contains only simple account properties, it's easy to create in the internal email platform's template builder UI. But if it needs complex data from your application, you'll need to land changes against the email platform to implement fetching of that data from your application. No, you can't push data into the template from the sending application, that would be too easy.

Or just add a new Java class and some templating logic to generate whatever you need in the application code.

> Compare to one or a few people working directly with Django/Rails, React, S3, Postmark, etc. and practicing the "write tests, not too many, mostly integration" thing.

And possibly end up with an insecure, faulty and otherwise unmaintainable solution because there wasn't even a modicum of oversight, or alternatively don't ship anything in a timely manner because the scope creep was unmanageable for the amount of people that you had. Or maybe just end up with those people using SaaS solutions which are more like SaaSS ( https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s... ) which you were legally not allowed to do due to where the data ends up and then have bunches of fun dealing with the legal implications of that.

Bottom line: if most of your time is spent fighting corporate policies and bureaucratic apparatus, it doesn't really matter whether you have 1, 5 or 10 people on your team, because dysfunctional environments can happen at any scale. I'd say that what you describe is an environment that's actively hostile to getting anything done, which could stem from a lack of decent management and people doing whatever they can to make themselves look better for a performance review, or to justify their own existence. Having too many people would definitely contribute to that, but at this point i feel like this discussion has perhaps devolved into some parody of the Goldilocks story, where the corporation would struggle to find the right amount of people.

Furthermore, i guess it's a matter of attempting to centralize everything vs having a decentralized approach, seeing as different projects and teams might need different solutions, hopefully mostly open source ones. I do think that you're perhaps also bringing up the fact that larger corporations oftentimes attempt to standardize on this stuff, much to everyone's chagrin, but that's not necessarily caused by the team size alone, rather the point in the company's lifecycle.

I should know - i've seen both of the scenarios above and having few focused people can indeed work nicely! For example, i developed the homepage for the contact tracing application in my country alone, a page that saw hundreds of thousands of visitors: https://apturicovid.lv/#en Due to that trust placed in me and the creative freedom, i was able to deliver about 70 different deployments of the site as well over a few months.

Did it work nicely? Yes. Was there also a pretty big possibility of me messing up? Also yes. Would this approach work for startups, side hustles and other smaller projects? Sure. Would i want to do the same for your typical enterprise project where battling scope creep and shifting priorities is the everyday reality, whilst the concept of set sprints is a joke? Probably not, that's where having more people makes sense.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have been incredibly lucky, or have a secret sauce I don't understand. I've worked a pair of maintenace positions. The previous one was incredibly creaky and had no other systems, so changes were scary and there was no recourse to move to something else. The only I'm working now I'm maintaining client code so I don't have any agency there either. Maybe it's agency? Ultimately I don't feel like my contribution…

I've done maintenance and didn't even have to wow anyone to get satisfaction. There's something deeply satisfying to me in cutting out thousands of lines of code and no-one even noticing. I will even go back and look at that commit over the next few weeks with a feeling of peace and accomplishment. I've sometimes 'stolen' time from feature work to do that refactoring, and it's the massive reduction of complexity and…

[deleted]

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#304
post #103
post #66

I “retired” after 12 years of web development due to extreme burnout. I now work in a completely different industry and could not be happier. It felt like my workload was forever increasing. I could never rest on any laurels without falling significantly “behind”. I developed a major substance abuse problem as well (sober 14 months now), although untangling cause and effect here is impossible. I think I was abusing s…

> It felt like my workload was forever increasing. I could never rest on any laurels without falling significantly “behind”. Sounds very familiar. Also, when I finally put my foot down to demand changes in order to avoid burnout, that was used against me when I was later discussing a pay raise. I learned to never bring up problems again, and got crashed hard.

That line about it being used against you rings true. Business is often a toxic stew of keeping secrets from others lest they exploit you. This warps our perception and experience of human intimacy. Yet one more reason I’m glad to have left the industry.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but then in the new job you need to maintain other people's stuff, which is even harder that maintaining your own stuff. And over time you get to own that, including all the previous tech debt that you didn't create

And you don't have that kind of "previous work bank" of stuff you accomplished when something runs late, in a new job. And things always run late. In my new job they said here's this major piece of work. We already committed to it. 2 other teams and outside customers are expecting it. Can you do it in 2 months? I don't know, maybe, I guess? There's a great starting point, they said. Then it turned out to take 5 month…

At some point in your career, you gain enough confidence to say no, I can't commit to that. If they fire you for not making unreasonable commitments, that's net benefit to you.

Dev shops don't have to operate like that, and all it takes is one person to have the fortitude to say no.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#306
post #24
post #16

Developers are getting too spoiled. Did someone do the same research for teachers for example.

If it turned out that teachers (and everyone else) also have an ~80% burnout rate, then that only shows a more fundamental problem. Not that anyone is being spoiled. And it's okay if that starts by finding out that developers have a ~80% burnout rate. To be fair, you are at least correct that we should run the same study against teachers. (And really as many other people as we can find the time/money for.)

The thing is that these bare numbers say nothing without "in compare with". There should be comparison with other job types or historical at least to make certain assumptions. Also for such burnouts developers often have some type of compensation, while other jobs rather not. Compare for example developers problems with Amazon devilery service drivers problems with toilets. A lot of jobs just luck minimal comfort and compesations and hardly can complain.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#307
post #296
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your very first submission! "Ask HN: how do you avoid burnout and getting taken advantage of?"[0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=939580

Haha, thanks. That brings back memories. If I recall, that thread helped me avoid burnout for a while. But it eventually caught up to me again with a ferocity I was unable to defend against, with the catalyst being a parent who died. Fortunately, I was in a position of financial strength and faced the beast head-on. On further reflection... burnout turned out to be a gift in disguise. It was an impetus for necessary…

I have had similar experiences. Thank you for sharing and good luck.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#308
I read the linked article, then I read part of the original study the article was based upon. My Statistics 101 interpretation of this is the study is bogus. First of all, you have to properly define the terms of what 'burnout' consists of. The study doesn't seem to do that. Second of all, even a well designed study, which this is not, is not statistically significant with such a low number of population samples. They interviewed 258 people for this. My conclusion: this "information" is worthless.
Post reply on HN