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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

theatlantic.com

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#231

I am seeing a lot of resentment in this thread. My best guess is that some of it is deserved and some of it isn't. Something that this thread reminded me of is the fact that several of my friends (millenial like myself) think that bringing children into this world is a bad thing to do- with global warming and other social problems making it so that this choice is just going to cause more suffering. I wasn't too surpr…

i think as we see crises accelerate, the only ones with true freedom to act and make the world they want to be in will be the nihilists.

everyone else is busy playing calculus looking for solutions that fit into existing logic and political economy, when the truth is that survival and creation irreducibly exist for their own sake.

bringing a child into a dying world might be the ultimate selfish act. it's also the only option that doesn't feel like suicide. and once they're here, there's nothing left to do but devote all your energy into making the world the best it can be.

i think this is what "family values" ultimately missed. family became the default, an inwardly-focused tradition and culture decoupled from praxis, and action was taken for granted.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*sowing Also, you're bringing up the textual source of the term, not its general connotation. The connotation is when an abuser, cheater, or otherwise harm causing individual decides to try to rewrite history or attack the competence of the individual bringing the grievance rather than address the grievance in good faith. There is a big difference between disagreeing on the facts of a situation and trying to invalida…

I guess you've never had someone accusing you of hurting them when you didn't? The optimal move is to disengage rather than argue, but I assure you that mandating that people "own" whatever spurious accusation is thrown their way just opens up a rich avenue for passive-aggressive abuse. Your contrasting the textual source with the general connotation is exactly the concept drift referenced by the post you're replying…

I have indeed been accused when I didn't agree with the objective harm caused. Thankfully, I typically didn't further escalate the situation and act like a jerk by denying their perception of the issue. Just because you don't immediately mount a fiery defense doesn't mean that you own their position, their feelings, or have to agree with them. This is emotional intelligence 101.

Typically a quiet, non-escalated discussion can help both parties feel better, clear up misunderstandings, and if apologies are merited (even from the initial accuser) they can be had. But only if you don't get someone's hackles up in the first place, or deny their right to air a grievance.

Again, the fact that you are already considering it a contest to be won or lost (or avoided immediately without discussion, which is a sure indicator to folks how much you don't care) probably says a lot about the lens you view the world through.

Referencing the connotation means that there is a general accepted usage, which is not the hyperbolic "didn't absolutely agree with their grievance" that the original post I replied to was making. In general terms, I think it has come to include unconscious manipulation in addition to the previous, narrow definition of conscious, machiavellian attempts to dispute concrete facts.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#233

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

> Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'.

You're spot on. The article coyly makes a mention of the real cause in this clause:

> For most of history, family relationships were based on mutual obligations rather than on mutual understanding. Parents or children might reproach the other for failing to honor/acknowledge their duty, but the idea that a relative could be faulted for failing to honor/acknowledge one’s ‘identity’ would have been incomprehensible.”

Although identity has many, and positive, functions[1], here it stands for "unquestioned affirmation of one's narcissistic self-image", in other words "what I think I am, being reflected to me". Social media can do this almost perfectly, most of them are perfectly fine tuned for our engagement, what we think we are, what we would like to hear, and what we would like to get angry at (which confirms our identity through opposition).

Anything that fails at this confirmation is expelled via the magic word "toxic"[2] and parents take their share for not being able to match this self-constructed, unearned narrative of an identity.

[1] Identity is a useful narrative that explains us to ourselves and others through time and space. But it is only useful to the degree it actually conforms to the reality, else it loses its adaptivity. Which means identity needs to stem from our relationships to the world; it doesn't come from within, it does't come from without, it comes from our genuine relationship with reality as we test it. If the majority of the reality we had to conform to was internet, where we can block, downvote, silence, cancel and get recommended to by an entity that are really interested in us sticking around, our identity becomes seriously self-deceptive and not useful across time and space outside the internet. In a sense, internet replaced the narcissistic, toxic parents we were running away from, except this parent is perfectly, and callously, able to tell us what we want to hear.

[2] Toxic exists. But not everything that pisses us off, or threatens our sense of identity is toxic. Narcissistic family systems are toxic because they put their needs above the needs of the child, that includes the need of the child to hear the harsh truth at times. What I see today is some parents are switching strategies by trying to outcompete with internet in being endlessly accommodating their children and not implementing necessary but unpopular structures their children might need. They couldn't have won anyway.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#234

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in to…

Toxic implies that some negative influence seeps out of people or situations, which causes harm proportional to the duration of exposure.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to wonder if that identity is the final refuge of generations that feel helpless and worse-off than prior ones.

Which suggests maybe we aren’t doing a good job teaching history.

Or someone isn't looking out the front windscreen to worry about climate change looming ahead...

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

This is the individualistic take.

The person you're responding to is referring to how societies worked since time immemorial, prior to the advent of such strong individualism.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#237

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

Your comment is a humblebrag. :(

My parents modeled and explicitly taught me a judgmental mindset. It became my worst fault. Can you feel the judgement in this comment? Thanks, Dad & Mom.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#238
There’s that saying “to truly love someone you have to be willing to let them go”.

Which is really really hard.

Raising my kids is my purpose. But when they’re adults they will make their own decisions about our relationship as equals.

Anything less would be conditional love: I appear to only love them conditioned on something. Like keeping me from being lonely or fulfilling me in some way. Thats not their job.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#239
post #79

The social structures are slowly disintagrating because their foundations were weak anyways. Religion and culture only masked it for a while. Everything is temporary in life and being a parent is a temporary role. A parent's job is to initiate the child to the world, teach them how to navigate it and how to be a functional member of society. In short, the parent's job is to help the child be as independant of them as…

>If you take that away from them, they have nothing left because they haven't cultivated anything else. My parents told me early on "I'm not your friend" and has since then always felt that I should be obligated toward them because they're my parents. These exact parents you mention in your comment are also the exact same ones that can't believe their children don't get along and they don't ever talk to them anymore.

> My parents told me early on "I'm not your friend" and has since then always felt that I should be obligated toward them because they're my parents.

My parents told me the same when I was young. It wasn't until about age 25 that the dynamic between us radically changed. There is a fine line to cross between being a primary caregiver and being an onlooker to someone's life. If you were a parent for 18 years it is understandable to have some "growing pains" associated with transitioning to a new type of relationship with your kids but it certainly is doable, even if it takes a while. I still seek advice from my parents (and they me) but it does not have the affect of authority as it did in childhood.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. In ancient Rome as far as the legal system was concerned, your children were your property . You could literally sell them into slavery, no questions asked[1]: > The pater familias had the power to sell his children into slavery; Roma…

> Also, your children's property was your property:

Isn't that still the case today until the child is past the age of majority?

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v10DWClP7NA

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