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The vital art of talking to strangers

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Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#91
post #72
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used to call this going to church. When literally everyone of all political stripes attended the same churches, going to a church potluck was basically being paired randomly. However large political factions have made church membership out to be undesirable. We are reaping the rewards. I realized yesterday reading about cornel west, that even though I disagree with his politics, I see from his Christianity we have…

"At 11:00 on Sunday morning when we stand and sing and Christ has no east or west, we stand at the most segregated hour in this nation." It's difficult for me to justify buying into the idea of Christian social life as the source of American unity when 10 years ago participating would have seen me bombarded with the reasons why my homosexuality would see me burn in hell for all eternity, or when 200 years ago it woul…

> The focus must be on the bringing together of disparate communities, secularly.

Except the 'United' states of America has never been about that kind of community. That's more of the fraternite of the French revolution than the spirit of America.

American unity has been due to the result of multiple different organizations and factions all participating in a common undertaking, rather than one centralized organization doing the planning and execution (as would be the case if we 'nationalized' education and did away with private schooling).

My view of America as one in which everyone can belong to different organizations, but still work together is the historical norm.

In de Tocqueville's 'Democracy in America', written at the founding of the USA, de Tocqueville (an outside french observer) writes:

> Americans of all ages, all stations in life, and all types of dispositions are forever forming associations. There are not only commercial and industrial associations in which all take part, but others of a thousand different types—religious, moral, serious, futile, very general and very limited, immensely large and very minute. > > Americans combine to give fetes, found seminaries, build churches, distribute books, and send missionaries to the antipodes. Hospitals, prisons, and schools take shape in that way... In every case, at the head of any new undertaking, where in France you would find the government or in England some territorial magnate, in the United States you are sure to find an association.

By asking the government to 'fund public schools at the national level' you are making America like France or England rather than what it historically has been, which is highly decentralized and disjointed, but still unified.

This in my opinion is the great disconnect between 'progressives' and 'conservatives' (for lack of better terms). There's a certain type of person that, when they see a problem, immediately asks how government can be leveraged to solve it. Whereas, for me, personally, and others I know, my response would be ... how could I get my local church men's club to help out. Because I can't control the government, and by the time I lobby and campaign, the problem will still have affected a bunch of other people. Whereas it's pretty easy to gather a group of guys to fix it.

One obvious example of this is -- as you mentioned -- schools. Before public schools were a thing, catholic communities all across the country pooled together parish money to start affordable schools, with great academic results. In response, the government started the public school system so people wouldn't have to deal with the church. That's fine and dandy, but we need to accept the fact that private organizations worked better than the government to immediately provide the service of education.

The same is true of hospitals. Go to any US city of any import, and you'll be sure to find a Catholic hospital. Where is the government if it's so useful. Even in Europe, where the healthcare systems are nationalized, half the hospitals used to be ones run by the Church. It remains to be seen how these nationalized healthcare systems will play out over the long-term (thousands of years), but we know how it works when the Church runs them... they stay around for a long time.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#92
post #62

As a related anecdote, I used to perform experiments by dressing in particular ways while going out in public. If I wore a nice blazer-type jacket and generally looked more preppy, I would definitely notice different behavior as when I might dress with with a t shirt and long sleeve over it with long sleeve shirt unbuttoned. I attribute this partly to conditioning via TV show characters etc.

Interesting attribution to conditioning via TV show characters. What was the difference in people's behaviours?

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#93
post #48

I have a hypothesis that almost all of the US's current cultural problems would be solved if once a month we all cooked and shared a meal with another randomly chosen family.

We used to call this going to church. When literally everyone of all political stripes attended the same churches, going to a church potluck was basically being paired randomly. However large political factions have made church membership out to be undesirable. We are reaping the rewards. I realized yesterday reading about cornel west, that even though I disagree with his politics, I see from his Christianity we have…

I think church is great for mixing up people who differ professionally and socioeconomically. But at least in the US it has also very much deepened the racial and (obviously) religious lines between people.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#94
post #91
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At 11:00 on Sunday morning when we stand and sing and Christ has no east or west, we stand at the most segregated hour in this nation." It's difficult for me to justify buying into the idea of Christian social life as the source of American unity when 10 years ago participating would have seen me bombarded with the reasons why my homosexuality would see me burn in hell for all eternity, or when 200 years ago it woul…

> The focus must be on the bringing together of disparate communities, secularly. Except the 'United' states of America has never been about that kind of community. That's more of the fraternite of the French revolution than the spirit of America. American unity has been due to the result of multiple different organizations and factions all participating in a common undertaking, rather than one centralized organizati…

> That's fine and dandy, but we need to accept the fact that private organizations worked better than the government to immediately provide the service of education.

There's much wrong with what you have posted here and elsewhere, but I'll just focus on this one. There are numerous studies looking at private vs public schools, and public schools are just as good as private if you get rid of confounding factors (private school students tend to come from wealthier families, for instance).

There are many, many sources for this, here's a good start:

https://www.upworthy.com/public-versus-private-school-a-stud...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherrim/2019/07/03/why-w...

https://www.hepg.org/hel-home/issues/31_1/helarticle/turning...

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#95
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The focus must be on the bringing together of disparate communities, secularly. Except the 'United' states of America has never been about that kind of community. That's more of the fraternite of the French revolution than the spirit of America. American unity has been due to the result of multiple different organizations and factions all participating in a common undertaking, rather than one centralized organizati…

> That's fine and dandy, but we need to accept the fact that private organizations worked better than the government to immediately provide the service of education. There's much wrong with what you have posted here and elsewhere, but I'll just focus on this one. There are numerous studies looking at private vs public schools, and public schools are just as good as private if you get rid of confounding factors (priva…

You are arguing something completely different. I pointed out that before public schools, there were large networks of private schools. Public schooling started as a response to the success of catholic schools.

I am not arguing for superiority of one over the other.

I'm just pointing out that decentralized, distributed decision making led to people's educational needs being met before government got with the program.

Also, your articles are on public v generic private. Catholic schools are outliers in the private school space. They tend to be significantly cheaper, have a different set of outcomes, and tend to be more socioeconomically representative of society at large.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#96
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Although I hope you are ready to meet lots of Christians and a few alcoholics every year. Always good to lump the Christians in with the alcoholics.

No offense to the christians. I was just trying to think of groups that compose more than 10% of the population.

Fair enough.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#97
post #70

Has literally anyone on this thread read the actual article? Seems pay walled to me... I don't view it as an issue, but maybe HN should start allowing "Let's Discuss" type submissions without a link to an article? That seems like what happens in many cases anyway. Anyways, on the topic of this article, yep it's important!

Mate, we have subscriptions to The Economist but the comment pinned at the top is a paywall bypass. Of course we read it.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#98
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a rosy view of religion, although I accept that is your experience and perspective, and thank you for sharing it. To me, church attendance is about making the in/out group very clear. You may feel close to different political views based on your single church or flavor of Christianity, but that's still a pretty limited group. I think church membership has become undesirable because 1) fewer people believe in…

> To me, church attendance is about making the in/out group very clear. You may feel close to different political views based on your single church or flavor of Christianity, but that's still a pretty limited group. It's not really though. I mean, being Catholic (and honestly, I know so little about Protestantism that I don't really feel qualified to speak to it), there are a lot of politics in the church. In 'the Bi…

For the people who left the church because they found some of the teachings abhorrent, I would assume they were rejecting the church's authority, not rejecting God. From their perspective it may be the church who split with God, and they are trying to stay on the path by getting away from the church.

This is coming from an areligious atheist, so I must acknowledge my lack of experience with this even though I've read about it and given it some thought.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#99
post #62

As a related anecdote, I used to perform experiments by dressing in particular ways while going out in public. If I wore a nice blazer-type jacket and generally looked more preppy, I would definitely notice different behavior as when I might dress with with a t shirt and long sleeve over it with long sleeve shirt unbuttoned. I attribute this partly to conditioning via TV show characters etc.

For many reasons, I grew accustomed to fit into many diverse social groups.

It's not only about the way you dress, but also which "side of you" you present to others. I mean, what I've learned is that there are many "I" available in me (and everyone, please generalize at will), and too many people consider wrongly that they're "one and only" and that it's "being true to oneself" to only expose one side of themself.

This is wrong. I, you and everyone, we are all individually a multitude and using this multitude to get yourself what you want (friends, information, jobs, sex, you name it) is not only a skill, which would sound a bit too utilitarian, but also and most importantly, it is a way to acknowledge yourself and let the others know the multitude and complexity and diversity of you.

And I think it's awesome.

Re: The vital art of talking to strangers

#100
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me, church attendance is about making the in/out group very clear. You may feel close to different political views based on your single church or flavor of Christianity, but that's still a pretty limited group. It's not really though. I mean, being Catholic (and honestly, I know so little about Protestantism that I don't really feel qualified to speak to it), there are a lot of politics in the church. In 'the Bi…

For the people who left the church because they found some of the teachings abhorrent, I would assume they were rejecting the church's authority, not rejecting God. From their perspective it may be the church who split with God, and they are trying to stay on the path by getting away from the church. This is coming from an areligious atheist, so I must acknowledge my lack of experience with this even though I've read…

> For the people who left the church because they found some of the teachings abhorrent, I would assume they were rejecting the church's authority, not rejecting God.

If every conservative that rejected the church's authority decided to stay at home from church, the church would be empty.

I get you don't like the church... like I really understand this viewpoint. But why reject the church goers? The pope, the bishops, the priests, sure I can see not liking them. But if you show up and talk to the church members, the ones who you grew up with, etc, what exactly is wrong with that?

Man I can't tell you how annoyed we've been with our priest, our bishops, and yes the pope. I've gone through periods of extreme doubt. I still show up for the community. Always have, and likely always will. Just stick around.

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