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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#171
post #63
post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

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> 26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity, as "normal, natural, healthy."

When Stalin came to power, homosexuality became a topic unfit for public depiction, defense or discussion. Homosexual or bisexual Soviets who wanted a position within the Communist Party were expected to marry a person of the opposite sex, regardless of their actual sexual orientation

The Khrushchev government believed that absent of a criminal law against homosexuality, the sex between men that occurred in the prison environment would spread into the general population

The first Khrushchev-era sex education manual...described homosexuals as child molesters: "...homosexuals are aroused by and satisfy themselves with adolescents and youngsters, even though the latter have a normal interest towards girls

....

Thousands of people were imprisoned for homosexuality and government censorship of homosexuality and gay rights did not begin to slowly relax until the early 1970s

....

In 1984, a group of Russian gay men met and attempted to organize an official gay rights organization, only to be quickly shut down by the KGB

....

On 27 May 1993, homosexual acts between consenting males were legalised

> 40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

The 1944 Edict... sought to preserve the family unit by making divorces even more difficult to obtain

You'll have to provide some evidence that your list is anything to do with McCarthyist Commumism fears

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#172

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

"Toxic" is just a catchier-sounding synonym for "harmful." It doesn't imply intent — in fact, that's one of its strengths, and one of the major components in the shift in the way we collectively talk about things over the past couple decades. Part of the conversation around race, for example, has been an awareness by more and more people that unintentional harms are far more prevalent than intentional ones, and in to…

I think if your kid grows up knowing you love them and you do your best to educate and teach them right from wrong then you are probably a good enough parent.

"Personally, I think putting that reckoning front and center is a good thing" I really disagree. If you parent was a monster, then absolutely. Otherwise, if they met the 3 points above then what good does calling them out and telling them that what they did was in your mind, harmful? They cant change anything and all it will do is make them react in hurt; they are still just people and you are invalidating their core life achievement. My parents were far from perfect, but they loved me and did their best, what would calling them out on any perceived failures do? I feel like people have lost the ability to just take things in stride these days. I can only speak from the personal experience of me and my siblings of course. My brother and I are very different in almost every way especially politics (He is pro Trump, I am not) but we just assume the other is coming from an honest place and doing what they think is best in their mind for their family and have good conversations and our families hang out often. My sister is unable to take anything in stride and assumes anyone that has different opinions than her is coming from a vindictive place. She has elected to completely remove herself from the family based on us not being far enough left for her (and I am pretty left). I find if one just assumes positive intent on another's actions as long as reality and not being a sucker allows then things are good. I always just assumed positive intent on my parents past actions or simple human flaw and all is good.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#173

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, and level-headedness.

The problem is, not everyone is lucky enough to receive that kind of childhood care, even though it seems like it should be universal. Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships.

It's usually difficult for people with decent upbringings to even conceptualize why a child might willingly remain estranged from their family. But there are a lot of people out there with really good reasons to do that.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#174

I think if anything, the "shift" is more like an unveiling. There are and have always been extremely problematic issues in many families, it's just that in the past you would be denigrated for severing ties with your family for those reasons due to a sense of duty. So we now finally see the elephant in the room. We cannot go back to unseeing it, but we have to deal with it gracefully. To me this is just the continuin…

I see it more as con self-involvement than empathy.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#175

I really dislike the term "adult children". Check out the google ngram: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22adult+child... The peak in 1992 is especially intriguing. How would the Victorians have expressed the same relationship?

Children. Or grown children. Or offspring.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for replying. I can’t say I agree with your reasoning though. I’ve seen first hand what kind of damage a generational chain does to a family. Daughters hating their mothers until their dying breath, only to carry that same trauma into a strained relationship with their children. The cycle repeats until a grown child decides to either consciously change this behavior with their own children, or distance th…

> Not to be too dramatic, I believe abusive parents will metaphorically poison their families well beyond their own lives. Cutting that rot out of the tree is sometimes a way to save the healthier branches. Thanks for the reply. You are labeling any kind of deference towards your parents as abuse. Do you not see the absolutism and extremism in your statement? Nowhere did I say children should tolerate abuse. I just s…

> Do you not see the absolutism and extremism in your statement?

You mean, like this statement:

> Your parents will never be your equals.

Sounds pretty extreme and absolutist to me. Are you saying that the mere act of procreation entitles a person to eternal deference from their children regardless of the nature of their relationship to those children?

> Parents have looked after you since you were a baby, they're always going to want to give advice, always going to want to help, and always going to remember you as the helpless little infant who needed their bum washed.

No, many parents have not "looked after" their children in any significant way. And who are you to assert that everyone's parents are motivated by loving memories of their infancy? Are you merely extrapolating from your own experience and applying it to everyone else?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The three biggest things I’ve seen cause estrangement are: 1. Coming out. I suspect that gay people always existed, but just didn’t come out. 2. Interracial relationships. Far less common in the past. And society doesn’t view them as negatively now, which changes the power balance. 3. Parental affairs. I suspect this is the one that always happened, but people just lived with it more. From my anecdotal list the probl…

4. Abuse. Did you mean they aren't actually new?

Huge agreement on including abuse.

It's hard to make this question grounded in data, but here's an anecdote I do think is accurate.

My grandfather was a horrific man. He died of complications due to alcoholism before I was born. That said, I've heard a lot about just what he was like, including from people outside the family. I've also seen 16mm film footage of him at family holidays, and it's shockingly clear every single other person in the room is straight up terrified of his potential temper. I'm not exaggerating on this point. I think he must have had something going very, very, wrong inside that skull.

My grandmother, who otherwise was a fiercely independent woman, stayed with him despite the abuse. My Dad, hitchhiked to Mexico one summer to escape him, but otherwise still tried to be the good son.

Why? Why not just divorce/disown the asshole?

The norms against that half a century ago were so much stronger. I do think that's an important shift that's happened recently. There's still plenty of people that stay in a bad situation due to loyalty, but the stigma, in the sense of victim blaming, has definitely eroded within my lifetime.

This is a very good thing in my book, even if it looks like a decay of society to some idiots.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's the thing though. If you hit me with your car, it doesn't matter whether it was an accident or whether you intended to. It matters a lot! First of all, it matters legally. An entirely different set of laws and procedures will be invoked depending on which it was. But, second, it matters because it tells me something about what to expect from you in the future. It tells me something about how you feel towards…

Don't ignore the sentence that "it doesn't matter" applies to : > You still caused me damage and it's still not crazy for me to hold you accountable. Obviously it matters in other ways.

Yes, my first objection addresses that part directly. Of course you're still accountable, but you're accountable in totally different ways. It matters a lot even just in how one should be accountable. Even if the topic is limited to accountability, there's no possible way to say it doesn't matter. It informs every aspect of that discussion.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#179

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

*sowing

Also, you're bringing up the textual source of the term, not its general connotation. The connotation is when an abuser, cheater, or otherwise harm causing individual decides to try to rewrite history or attack the competence of the individual bringing the grievance rather than address the grievance in good faith. There is a big difference between disagreeing on the facts of a situation and trying to invalidate someone's perception of the situation in a manipulative way to avoid blame. If your first instinct when someone says "you hurt me" is to argue why it's not your fault, you should probably talk to a therapist about that. That is how a lot of families work, and will even couch it in terms of "tough love" despite it being frankly abusive behavior. To use the word of the day, that's toxic.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#180
post #63
post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

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I'd say that you really have to look back farther to the enlightenment for the source of basically all of those bulletpoints. It's not communism that came up with any of those ideas, it just happened to find them useful/worthwhile.
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