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Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#181

Post by sgift »

rendall wrote: post #167
bzbarsky wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal investigators and obstruction of justice, not for insider trading. The "insider trading" (not actually a crime; the actual criminal thing in such cases tends to be "securities fraud") charges were variously dropped or dismissed by the court, depending on the charge. So she was actually innocent (in the legal system sense, at least) of the crime she was initially accu…

> Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal investigators Kids, if the FBI comes a-knocking, shut. Your. Fat. Fucking. Mouth. Ask for a lawyer and the shut the fuck up. It doesn't matter if you're innocent. If you talk to the Feds and make a mistake, you can be charged with a felony for lying to to federal agents. Did you talk to that guy on Saturday, May 20th, 2017? Who knows? The Feds do, and if you don't…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o

It's always shut the fuck up Friday. 7 days a week.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#182

Post by baybal2 »

rendall wrote: post #167
bzbarsky wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal investigators and obstruction of justice, not for insider trading. The "insider trading" (not actually a crime; the actual criminal thing in such cases tends to be "securities fraud") charges were variously dropped or dismissed by the court, depending on the charge. So she was actually innocent (in the legal system sense, at least) of the crime she was initially accu…

> Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal investigators Kids, if the FBI comes a-knocking, shut. Your. Fat. Fucking. Mouth. Ask for a lawyer and the shut the fuck up. It doesn't matter if you're innocent. If you talk to the Feds and make a mistake, you can be charged with a felony for lying to to federal agents. Did you talk to that guy on Saturday, May 20th, 2017? Who knows? The Feds do, and if you don't…

I advice you to reform the US federal criminal law.

It's a glaring injustice that a completely random innocent person can be prosecuted for saying "I don't know"

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#183

Post by shkkmo »

bzbarsky wrote: post #154
bogomipz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Sorry, but it's a sign of a justice system very out of whack and not something to defend." I was in no way defending that system at all. I was just pointing out that the 99% statistic is constantly thrown about in Ghosn discussions without ever mentioning what the conviction percentage is anywhere else. And if you use the US as a a standard of comparison then that statistic is actually quite high as well. And if us…

I would love a citation on where you are getting "above 99%" for the US. What I managed to find easily just now in https://www.justice.gov/usao/reading_room/reports/asr2012/12... page 9 has: "Of the 87,709 defendants terminated during Fiscal Year 2012, 80,963, or 93 percent, either pled guilty or were found guilty." So quite high, but not anything like over 99%. This is federal cases, though, so maybe state cases hav…

> Japan’s often-cited conviction rate of over 99 percent is a percentage of all prosecuted cases, not just contested cases. It is eye-catching, but misleading, since it counts as convictions those cases in which defendants pleaded guilty. If the U.S. conviction rate were calculated in a similar manner it would also exceed 99 percent since so few cases are contested at trial (in FY 2018 only 320 of the total number of 79,704 federal defendants were acquitted at trial).[0]

[0] https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-c...

Edit: looking at your linked PDF I think the above quote is missing the thousands of misdemeanors dismissed by judges. This just goes the show the difficulty of comparing legal systems using a single number from each.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#184

Post by fouric »

sn41 wrote: post #159
djrogers wrote: post #138

>For more than a year, Mr Ghosn spent long periods in custody or was held under house arrest in Tokyo after being bailed. It was not clear when a trial would take place - the fear was it could take years - and Mr Ghosn faced a further 15 years in prison if convicted, in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate. >It was during a period of house arrest, when Mr Ghosn was told he would not be allowed to have any cont…

99.4 percent conviction rate? That sounds very suspicious to me. Btw, strange that Japan is called as 'Western' - perhaps the better term is OECD? Same goes for NZ, I guess.

An article linked in another comment in this thread[1] implies that this is because Japanese prosecutors pressure everyone, even innocents, into confession[2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27827906 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/world/asia/11japan.html

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#185

Post by bogomipz »

bzbarsky wrote: post #154
bogomipz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Sorry, but it's a sign of a justice system very out of whack and not something to defend." I was in no way defending that system at all. I was just pointing out that the 99% statistic is constantly thrown about in Ghosn discussions without ever mentioning what the conviction percentage is anywhere else. And if you use the US as a a standard of comparison then that statistic is actually quite high as well. And if us…

I would love a citation on where you are getting "above 99%" for the US. What I managed to find easily just now in https://www.justice.gov/usao/reading_room/reports/asr2012/12... page 9 has: "Of the 87,709 defendants terminated during Fiscal Year 2012, 80,963, or 93 percent, either pled guilty or were found guilty." So quite high, but not anything like over 99%. This is federal cases, though, so maybe state cases hav…

There's a citation linked in my GP comment above.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#186

Post by skeeter2020 »

garmaine wrote: post #146
Goety wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To top it off Japan extradited US citizens for doing something not considered a crime in Japan! In what world does that happen?

That’s the nature of extradition. Edit: Why the downvotes? “If requested by the charging state, US states and territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony, misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the custodial state.” As far as I’m aware this holds true of international extradition too. That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice…

Countries can still extradite in this scenario as a "favour" but there is typical a strong legal case against extradition if the charged crime is not a crime in the legal jurisdiction. (see current issue with Meng Wanzhou the Huawei CFO fighting extradition from Canada to USA)

>> That’s kinda the whole point—you can’t escape justice by picking a destination that doesn’t prosecute your crime.

You most certain can; combine poor relations with the country requesting extradition and you can avoid "justice" indefinitely.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#187

Post by chmod775 »

sn41 wrote: post #159
djrogers wrote: post #138

>For more than a year, Mr Ghosn spent long periods in custody or was held under house arrest in Tokyo after being bailed. It was not clear when a trial would take place - the fear was it could take years - and Mr Ghosn faced a further 15 years in prison if convicted, in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate. >It was during a period of house arrest, when Mr Ghosn was told he would not be allowed to have any cont…

99.4 percent conviction rate? That sounds very suspicious to me. Btw, strange that Japan is called as 'Western' - perhaps the better term is OECD? Same goes for NZ, I guess.

> 99.4 percent conviction rate?

There's commonly two cited reasons for that:

- Prosecutors won't even charge you unless they're completely convinced they've got an open-and-shut case.

- Because of this, judges are likely to assume you are guilty if charged.

Additionally, wrongful convictions are extremely embarrassing for judges, prosecutors, and their offices. For this reason they are unlikely to admit mistakes and other judges are under extreme pressure not to overturn convictions.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#188

Post by Delk »

rramadass wrote: post #169
rjzzleep wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't because in Japan they're not as worried about their own citizen leaving the country. When you get caught stealing something in Japan they will take you into custody for over 20 days, no bail, no nothing. I believe it's 10 days and then 1 or 2 extensions(but I don't remember the details). This only applies to foreigners. Basically the idea is that the only real punishment they can give you is whatever they…

Here is a short interview with a Japanese lawyer on how the law screws over foreigners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZLGqL1FMo After watching this, i could understand why Carlos Ghosn did what he did; it is an abhorrent "Hostage Justice" system.

That's an interesting interview. Too bad the editing of the video leaves a bit to be desired: it seems to cut out parts and skip in such a way that it's hard to tell what exactly the lawyer originally said, and how much the editing affects how you understand what was said.

The editing is probably benign in intention, but I would much rather hear a longer and perhaps more convoluted explanation than something cut-for-convenience where I'm not sure if I'm hearing and understanding the interviewee's answers the way he said them.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#189

Post by LatteLazy »

djrogers wrote: post #138

>For more than a year, Mr Ghosn spent long periods in custody or was held under house arrest in Tokyo after being bailed. It was not clear when a trial would take place - the fear was it could take years - and Mr Ghosn faced a further 15 years in prison if convicted, in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate. >It was during a period of house arrest, when Mr Ghosn was told he would not be allowed to have any cont…

The general rule in Japan is that if the police say you did it, the jury either agree or they're calling the police liars, and that would be a huge a loss of face for the police, and no one wants that.

Re: Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan

#190

Post by xnyan »

baybal2 wrote: post #182
rendall wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal investigators Kids, if the FBI comes a-knocking, shut. Your. Fat. Fucking. Mouth. Ask for a lawyer and the shut the fuck up. It doesn't matter if you're innocent. If you talk to the Feds and make a mistake, you can be charged with a felony for lying to to federal agents. Did you talk to that guy on Saturday, May 20th, 2017? Who knows? The Feds do, and if you don't…

I advice you to reform the US federal criminal law. It's a glaring injustice that a completely random innocent person can be prosecuted for saying "I don't know"

Where do you live? I can guarantee your state security/police operates in a roughly comparable manner.
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