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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#111

Post by cogman10 »

mizzack wrote: post #105
cogman10 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tying everything you don't like to communism, like Skousen LOVED to do, is a pretty poor argument. EVERYTHING that these quacks and racists didn't like was tied to communism [1]. If you can explain to me how government controlled production has ANY relationship to culture or the acceptance/rejection of homosexuality, I'm all ears. Bare in mind, communist governments have routinely banned homosexuality. [2] To the lik…

Added scare quotes to "communists". I'm not talking about literal communists. 50's boogeyman communists. Maybe I _did_ mean that flippantly.

I don't really see your point then. Why bring this up at all? Just to show that the worst fears of extremists have come true?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#112

Post by pseudalopex »

kenjackson wrote: post #109
pmichaud wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I mean, this is the claim / supposition: this isn't new, it's just not hidden anymore. But I think it's worth questioning whether the supposition is true or not, and not in the sense of "can I think of any examples of a dysfunctional family being exposed now that would not have been back then?" because when you're talking about a large population you can find examples of pretty much anything (including that a lo…

The three biggest things I’ve seen cause estrangement are: 1. Coming out. I suspect that gay people always existed, but just didn’t come out. 2. Interracial relationships. Far less common in the past. And society doesn’t view them as negatively now, which changes the power balance. 3. Parental affairs. I suspect this is the one that always happened, but people just lived with it more. From my anecdotal list the probl…

4. Abuse.

Did you mean they aren't actually new?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#113

Post by cogman10 »

jahnu wrote: post #39
cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

I grew up in Ireland and it was still very conservative and religious back in the late 70s to the late 80s of my youth. We only legalised divorce in 1997! But since then there has been a sea change in attitudes. Marriage equality, abortion on demand, an openly gay man as premier. Little backlash against migrants even when the economy tanked in 07-08. But this did not cause much in the way of estrangement. Indeed I ha…

I mean, 70s and 80s was the peak of the troubles. Things didn't really settle down until '00.

I have to wonder how much the violence of the last few decades impacted ireland and the nations ability to just accept "the other".

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#114

Post by bradlys »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #106
iammisc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They may not admit it, but they’re not looking for a stronger relationship as equals Your parents will never be your equals. Have you considered that your expectations of equality are themselves a misaligned cultural values? My goodness, my mother was deferential to my grandmother up until the day she died.

Hey, thanks for replying. I can’t say I agree with your reasoning though. I’ve seen first hand what kind of damage a generational chain does to a family. Daughters hating their mothers until their dying breath, only to carry that same trauma into a strained relationship with their children. The cycle repeats until a grown child decides to either consciously change this behavior with their own children, or distance th…

> The cycle repeats until a grown child decides to either consciously change this behavior with their own children, or distance themselves from their parent.

Thus, the estrangement as described in the article… I’m one who plans to never pass down any of the parental styles my parents employed and that will be easier due to my somewhat minor version of estrangement. (I pickup the phone every month or three but I never make the call)

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#115

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

nkingsy wrote: post #84

I feel nauseous when I accidentally stumble into Reddit shame and pity fests. I’m honestly terrified of what my children will blame on me some day. Just an example off the top of my head: “aita for cutting off my parents because they kicked me out of the house when I was 18?”, followed by thousands of comments digitally lynching the parent in question and wallowing in the terrible trauma the OP experienced. I wasn’t…

edit: i guess my comment was a little too personal to state.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#116

Post by steve_adams_86 »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #98
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve noticed a trend amongst other 30-somethings I know to adopt this sort of pop psychology which encourages people to look very, very closely at their childhoods. It’s a great idea to understand your upbringing, but it’s not a trivial effort to do it properly. I don’t think it’s always a great idea for 2 reasons. One, it’s known that our memories change over time. Traumatic memories can become better than they shou…

I don't think this is what is going on in the article and in these cases of estrangement though. In my experience with myself and my friends estrangement isn't the result of someone who is 35 looking back and misremembering a slight in their childhood, its the result of a long and ongoing issue with a family member that degrades the relationship over time and that impacts them in the current moment today. I am estran…

Good point, I’m glossing over that part. I’d agree that this likely only happens in situations where there are ongoing tensions or worse. That’s definitely been the case with people I know. As a result, the exploration of childhood isn’t objective at all. It’s occurring within the frame of present conflict.

I’m sorry about your relationship with your dad. I have trouble with mine too, and it weighs on me at times. Relationships can be complicated.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#117

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

remir wrote: post #79

The social structures are slowly disintagrating because their foundations were weak anyways. Religion and culture only masked it for a while. Everything is temporary in life and being a parent is a temporary role. A parent's job is to initiate the child to the world, teach them how to navigate it and how to be a functional member of society. In short, the parent's job is to help the child be as independant of them as…

>If you take that away from them, they have nothing left because they haven't cultivated anything else.

My parents told me early on "I'm not your friend" and has since then always felt that I should be obligated toward them because they're my parents. These exact parents you mention in your comment are also the exact same ones that can't believe their children don't get along and they don't ever talk to them anymore.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#118

Post by derbOac »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #68
everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

I’ve noticed a trend amongst other 30-somethings I know to adopt this sort of pop psychology which encourages people to look very, very closely at their childhoods. It’s a great idea to understand your upbringing, but it’s not a trivial effort to do it properly. I don’t think it’s always a great idea for 2 reasons. One, it’s known that our memories change over time. Traumatic memories can become better than they shou…

I don't think this is unique to familial relationships. I think this is maybe a trend with all sorts of relationships. I'm not sure if there's any way of quantifying it, because I think it's something that's always happened, but I get the sense it's more common than it used to be.

Without meaning to sound judgmental, I see it as part of a general trend -- cancel culture, sensitivity warnings, etc -- that involves some underlying pattern. Maybe it's just more encouraged now than it used to be, maybe it's not really any different, I don't know. But I do get the sense people (liberal and conservative, young and old) are more likely to be absolutist about their viewpoints, political and relational, in a way that leaves less room for "seeing the other side" and change.

It's important to note I think the familial estrangement issue is more complicated than this, and involves other changes in cultural values, but also socioeconomic crises.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#119

Post by bart_spoon »

cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

I'm unsure if its related to estrangement, but I don't think its farfetched to assume its a big factor. Its interesting to me that for many who consider themselves non-religious often have taken up something else (overwhemingly, politics it seems) to fill the hole, often with the same zeal and dogmatic outlook that they look down on in traditional faith-based belief systems.

But I also think its more than simply the abandonment of religion. It is the abandonment of religion combined with the rise of the internet/social media. It isn't only religion that has suffered participation declines in the previous decades. Local communities of all kinds have crumbled. The internet has provided people with a means of escape from anyone that could possibly disagree with you and allows you to find perfectly insular cultural bubbles. This is immediately more gratifying than real world relationships, but it also conditions people to have zero tolerance for anyone in "meat space" that isn't in complete alignment with them, in which case they simply distance themselves from the relationship. But at the same time, many of these online community relationships tend to be more shallow and superficial than real life ones, which is why so many people report strong feelings of loneliness in their lives.

We've essentially dismantled most of our traditional local sources of community and replaced them with superficial but unsatisfying online ones.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#120

Post by Method-X »

wutbrodo wrote: post #71
Guest42 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My interpreting of the use of the word “toxic” is that there is an unbridgeable communication and understanding gap between generations when it comes to professional opportunities. In 2009, I had someone in the older generation tell me that success is simple, just have to get a temp job like they did in finance and rent an apartment.

I agree to some degree, but what I don't get is the mechanism by which that's assumed to translate into toxicity, let alone enough toxicity to engender estrangement. Parents not understanding their children's world is as old as time, or at least as old as industrialization. I experienced this myself to a pretty significant degree, and I wouldn't describe my parents' misunderstanding of the modern economy as "toxic" i…

I think “toxic” is a bit hyperbolic. It’s likely they’re just frustrated with how out of touch some baby boomers can be.
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