A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#61

Post by malfist » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

throwaway98797 wrote: post #38

everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

The younger generation get social value by being the saddest person in the room. Sometimes, their stories are rightfully so and deserve our help. other times they reframe their lives negatively just to win the social game of their generation. Once they reframe they start to believe thier own narrative creating a vicious cycle. The older generation, has their own problems in arrogance and ignorance, but they cant even…

You paint with a very broad brush.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#62

Post by nsxwolf » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

A few years back there was a movement on Facebook with groups called "Survivors of Narcissistic Parents" and similar that encouraged people to cut off their parents. It seemed wildly popular and had tons of engagement. People would diagnose their parents with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, discuss how every problem in their lives could be traced to their parents, and that was that.

I've also saw more than one person disown their parents after being sucked in to the anticircumcision movement - men who had until that moment seemingly normal lives but were then convinced their sex lives would never reach their potential because of a decision their parents had made.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#63

Post by mizzack » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

[flagged]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#64

Post by iammisc » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

michaelscott wrote: post #24

iammisc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree... I don't relate to these articles at all. My parents are religious, and yeah, in some ways they're out of touch, but they're not so out of touch as this article makes them out to be. All old people tend to be slightly out of touch with the younger generation. My grandparents didn't always understand my parents. Such is the way of the world.

I think the article is talking about estrangement proper, where children and parents do not talk to each other at all, not that they engage but sometimes don't understand one another. The former is more serious, the latter is expected.

I don't think I understand that either. My view of family is definitely one of obligation not understanding.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#65

Post by wutbrodo » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #11

wutbrodo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you skipped a step here. Why would needing to move to a city and use computers cause "toxic" behavior?

>Why would needing to move to a city and use computers cause "toxic" behavior? What if you don't want to do those two things?

I understand this even less. A child being forced by the economy to be a white collar urban worker would automatically cause their parents to behave toxically towards them? Again, I feel like steps are being skipped here. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that I don't understand the connection and would appreciate elaboration.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#66

Post by parrellel » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

I mean, there's probably a lot of actual classical gaslighting going on to. My interactions with my mother definitely fall into the old film definition of the thing.

"I never chased you around the apartment with a knife! It was brainwashing!"

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#67

Post by throwaway23429 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

I was estranged from my parents, and I am also in the process of adopting a child. This led me to think a lot about the sort of relationship I want with my children, versus what my parents and I have.

I believe my parents had me because they feel like it was their duty, and they fulfilled their parental obligations fairly well in that regard. The trouble is that they didn't consider what it was like to have an adult son. Now they probably realise that I'm not the sort of person they like (I'm gay, and living in a different country). They don't call anymore, and even when I call them they only talk about themselves. They have no interest in me or my life.

I hope that whomever is having children right now should think very thoroughly about what kind of relationship they want with their kids once they grow up.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#68

Post by steve_adams_86 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

I’ve noticed a trend amongst other 30-somethings I know to adopt this sort of pop psychology which encourages people to look very, very closely at their childhoods. It’s a great idea to understand your upbringing, but it’s not a trivial effort to do it properly.

I don’t think it’s always a great idea for 2 reasons. One, it’s known that our memories change over time. Traumatic memories can become better than they should (it wasn’t that bad, right?), while frustrating memories can become worse than they should (every reiteration of the memory solidifies just how frustrating it was!). In general, this kind of reflection, unless we have external sources to affirm our recollections (siblings or a parent/adult we trust), seems like it could easily become counter productive.

Two, without understanding ourselves reasonably well in our present state, seeking out past events to construct an explanation of who we are can lead to some very bad science in which we attempt to explain things we poorly understand in ways that don’t make sense.

I’ve had several conversations with friends over the last 5 years or so in which they elaborated on weird stuff their parents did. In some cases it’s simply to acknowledge their influences and why they might be the way they are. In others, perhaps most, they appear to be looking for excuses and ways to apply blame externally.

This is obviously anecdotal. Maybe I hang out with weird people.

In any case I’ve always strongly encouraged people to navigate this kind of thing with a therapist or other family if possible. Doing this in a vacuum is very risky. It seems to lead to exactly what you’re outlining here. Children resenting parents for things that they believe negatively affected them, which the parents don’t even remember - or remember differently.

Of course they remember them differently though. They remember them from different frames of reference, different stages of mental development, and for different reasons!

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#69

Post by cmh89 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

travisgriggs wrote: post #37

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #2

The world became big and complicated while the older generation was already fat on their success. It's very hard for a 55 year old manager of a small town bank to understand his daughter literally will not have the same opportunities he had as globalization eats all of the small town opportunities. She'll almost certainly have to move to a city and probably utilize computers all day, get a serious education in an eng…

> It's very hard for a 55 year old manager of a small town bank to understand his daughter literally will not have the same opportunities he had as globalization eats all of the small town opportunities. I am 50. I make good money as a software developer in an agrarian community of 50,000. I have 4 children with one left at home. It IS (and has been) very clear to me that my children are having a harder time enjoying…

From my experience it's that moderately well-off to well-off older folks rarely recognize that the opportunities that enabled their lifestyle don't exist anymore.

For example, when I was in high school, I was told that just getting any college degree would enable me to get into a good paying career, or talking with older folks about buying a home, they rarely understand how unaffordable homes are now. Lots of older folks also seem to be completely surprised that people in their 20s and 30s don't want kids simply because of the cost. Or student loan debt, how many times have I heard someone in their 50s+ talk about how they worked hard so they didn't have any student loans when they left school while failing to acknowledge how much cheaper school was in the past?

Not all old people are unaware, but a significant amount are oblivious to how much worse the world is today.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#70

Post by wing-_-nuts » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

This article doesn't go far enough to hold parents accountable for their actions IMHO. It's completely justified to go 'no contact' with a parent who was physically abusive, who is homophobic, etc.

I bristle at the implication that parents are owed anything. My relationship with my parents is based upon mutual respect as adults. Had they not at least made an effort to reconcile, we would not be on speaking terms today.