A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#11

Post by everdrive » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #3

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #2

The world became big and complicated while the older generation was already fat on their success. It's very hard for a 55 year old manager of a small town bank to understand his daughter literally will not have the same opportunities he had as globalization eats all of the small town opportunities. She'll almost certainly have to move to a city and probably utilize computers all day, get a serious education in an eng…

I feel like you skipped a step here. Why would needing to move to a city and use computers cause "toxic" behavior?

>Why would needing to move to a city and use computers cause "toxic" behavior?

What if you don't want to do those two things?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#12

Post by motohagiography » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

treespace88 wrote: post #4

If find it interesting that divorce is not mentioned. The 70 year olds today are the first major wave of divorce. It’s hard hear an older generation talk about duty and responsibility now, when 40 years ago they divorced to have a happier life.

> Why would divorce increase the risk? In my clinical work I have seen how divorce can create a radical realignment of long-held bonds of loyalty, gratitude, and obligation in a family. It can tempt one parent to poison the child against the other. It can cause children to reexamine their lives prior to divorce and shift their perspective so they now support one parent and oppose the other. It can bring in new people—stepparents or stepsiblings—to compete with the child for emotional or material resources. Divorce—as well as the separation of parents who never married—can alter the gravitational trajectories of a family so that, over time, members spin further and further out of one another’s reach. And when they do, they might not feel compelled to return.

Appears it was mentioned specifically and in-depth.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#13

Post by Guest42 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #3

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #2

The world became big and complicated while the older generation was already fat on their success. It's very hard for a 55 year old manager of a small town bank to understand his daughter literally will not have the same opportunities he had as globalization eats all of the small town opportunities. She'll almost certainly have to move to a city and probably utilize computers all day, get a serious education in an eng…

I feel like you skipped a step here. Why would needing to move to a city and use computers cause "toxic" behavior?

My interpreting of the use of the word “toxic” is that there is an unbridgeable communication and understanding gap between generations when it comes to professional opportunities. In 2009, I had someone in the older generation tell me that success is simple, just have to get a temp job like they did in finance and rent an apartment.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#14

Post by throwaway284534 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

IMO, these parents are often narcissistic people who aren’t prepared or even capable of recognizing what their grown children want from them. Ironically, both sides want the same kind of acceptance from one another:

“Will you unconditionally accept me and my lifestyle?”

“Will you accept that I’m not fully capable of understanding your needs, and therefore cannot respect you as you’d like?”

Contemporary expectations ask that estranged parents humble themselves and become emotionally vulnerable to their child, an already difficult task that’s made harder with age and misaligned cultural values. And after already giving up so much of their lives, they may think their children are behaving like overgrown and entitled brats.

Personally, I don’t believe these estranged parents really, truly want their children back in their lives. They may not admit it, but they’re not looking for a stronger relationship as equals — they want their child to behave as the caretaker they had sacrificed so much of their lives for.

If anyone’s interested, I wrote up a personal essay on my own bout with narcissistic family.

https://www.inherentmag.com/opinion-1/splenda-love

Meta: I’ve seen this comment fluctuate up and down 10 points in less than 10 minutes. If I’ve poked your wound, I’d be happy to hear why.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#15

Post by cookieswumchorr » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #2

The world became big and complicated while the older generation was already fat on their success. It's very hard for a 55 year old manager of a small town bank to understand his daughter literally will not have the same opportunities he had as globalization eats all of the small town opportunities. She'll almost certainly have to move to a city and probably utilize computers all day, get a serious education in an eng…

due to the exponential nature of progress, the span between ourselves and our kids will be greater than between us and our parents. whenever I read about how evil the boomers are, I imagine how we will be getting it one day for reasons nobody would have thought of today

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#16

Post by scandox » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#17

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

I'd say if mentally sound and healthy child repeatedly accuses their own parents of fucked up childhood so much they are cutting all ties, then they really had one thanks to them. If parents refuse to even acknowledge this and seek amendments, what other course is there? Let them poison even your adult life and your kids?

I mean who doesn't know those self-absorbed people for whom the rest of the world is to be used for their own gains. Such people are never good parents, and the confirmation of this is how they children behave and think as adults. The best of those realize this and create their own life path, in which there is no place for toxic people, parents or not.

Often a string of 'friendships' which is more about we're similar and the rest of the folks are weird/hates us, so lets hang out. Often string of relationships, one messier than the other. Then big regrets when old, since all the fuckery eventually pays back, often big time. Or they just compare their life with somebody living without big failures and not being unlucky when it comes ie to health.

I have endless sympathy for those who did all the right things and still ended up miserably. But those who repeatedly dig their own moral grave and then cry when in it are not worth spending much energy. People generally don't change that much.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#18

Post by iammisc » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

I agree... I don't relate to these articles at all. My parents are religious, and yeah, in some ways they're out of touch, but they're not so out of touch as this article makes them out to be. All old people tend to be slightly out of touch with the younger generation. My grandparents didn't always understand my parents. Such is the way of the world.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#19

Post by tablespoon » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

cookieswumchorr wrote: post #15

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #2

The world became big and complicated while the older generation was already fat on their success. It's very hard for a 55 year old manager of a small town bank to understand his daughter literally will not have the same opportunities he had as globalization eats all of the small town opportunities. She'll almost certainly have to move to a city and probably utilize computers all day, get a serious education in an eng…

due to the exponential nature of progress, the span between ourselves and our kids will be greater than between us and our parents. whenever I read about how evil the boomers are, I imagine how we will be getting it one day for reasons nobody would have thought of today

> due to the exponential nature of progress, the span between ourselves and our kids will be greater than between us and our parents. whenever I read about how evil the boomers are, I imagine how we will be getting it one day for reasons nobody would have thought of today

Which supports the argument that such rapid change should be slowed down, because it's anti-human.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#20

Post by octostone » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #8

As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion. Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even. Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millenni…

On mobile so I can’t look now, but from what I recall the people who have looked into it (and quite a few have) find that the causal relationship goes in the other direction, at least in the US —- young people have abandoned religion because of religions treatment of homosexuals, women (including access to abortion), and, for white evangelicals, their treatment of racial minorities. Religious organizations in the US have persecuted their culture war at great expense. IIRC they’re currently replacing those lost young people with people who are attracted to their movement specifically because of these various bigotries, so I think they’re holding about even, but given demographic shifts I don’t know how long that will be sustainable.