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One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

theatlantic.com

81–90 of 133 posts

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practically speaking, there's very little most governments can do to the most populous nation in the world with a military infrastructure rivaled by only a handful of other countries. And even fewer things they could do that don't ultimately culminate in massive bloodshed.

The US government has many tools at its disposal - sanctions, tariffs, supplier policy, etc. But culturally we can do a lot more. Western filmmakers, actors, and athletes should not censor themselves (or allow themselves to be censored) to avoid irritating China. There could be a BDS-like movement against China. The media and activists could spend some cycles focusing on the genocide occurring in China in between muc…

To my mind, that is the best option on the table.

But it's tricky, because (a) it's mutually exclusive with trade limitations (one only gets cultural product in front of another nation if trade is maintained) and (b) the CCP is well aware of culture as a weapon and uniquely sensitive to its use and prepared to defend against it.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#82
post #30

I hadn't realized that the absolute number in the Xinjiang camps --- "more than 1 million", according to the article --- is half the number of people in US prisons. It's 4% of the population of Xinjiang, compared to less than 1% of the population of the US, but of course it's 0.1% of the population of China as a whole, and there are US communities that are more heavily incarcerated. The whole situation is appalling,…

Have a culture which leave the least amount of power possible to the states, and prevents forming groups that are too large (be it monopolies of governments). But with US borrowing something like 1 trillion dollars per semester, it has good chances of overpowering everyone if it ever turns into an undesired form.

Well, I think a lot of indigenous groups in America and Africa did in fact have cultures that granted very little power to the State. But those groups were mostly not agricultural, and so they had low population density and very limited military defenses, and were largely overwhelmed by the military force of absolutist monarchies and then republics during the colonial era. (There were also agricultural indigenous cultures overwhelmed by colonization in both America and Africa, but those cultures also had high degrees of social stratification and state power, at least in the examples I'm familiar with.)

I'm not clear on how similar the genocide in Xinjiang is to the process of colonization I'm more familiar with; it clearly has some elements in common, like the Indian Schools, forced relocations, and the mass destruction of religious artifacts and languages, and (in the US) the obligatory United Line of Defense/Pledge of Allegiance. The Stasi-like culture of informers and the hierarchical neighborhood committee structure, however, seems like a significant difference. And the levels of brutality are still, fortunately, comparatively low, compared to those historical atrocities—though still intolerably high in absolute terms.

The historical background is quite different; there have been mosques throughout China since at least the Song and probably the Tang, and many of the greatest Chinese in history have been Muslims (郑和 is perhaps the most famous), and the Uighur settlement of much of what is now Xinjiang dates to the late 18th century, after the Qing committed genocide against the Dzungar Mongols.

This article provides a very useful anatomy of the forms state oppression can take in today's world. Studying it will probably serve anyone well, because these same practices are likely in the future of many peoples, at the hands of many different governments—at least those that prove effective at establishing social control. Tahir Hamut Izgil's present is many, many people's future.

How can we prevent the heavily-stratified societies that generate such profound oppression from overpowering people and territory in this way? Having a culture that doesn't generate that kind of stratification is surely necessary, but it wasn't enough for the Lakota, the San, or the Bayaka.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#83
post #30

I hadn't realized that the absolute number in the Xinjiang camps --- "more than 1 million", according to the article --- is half the number of people in US prisons. It's 4% of the population of Xinjiang, compared to less than 1% of the population of the US, but of course it's 0.1% of the population of China as a whole, and there are US communities that are more heavily incarcerated. The whole situation is appalling,…

China has been facing a series of Uighur terrorist attacks. The US faced one day of attacks loosely related to Muslims living on the western border of Xinjiang, and the US just had a (partial!) withdrawal from there this month after 20 years there (or more going back to the 1970s). The US going to the other side of the world, while the Chinese are dealing with a threat in their own country. Puzzling to see the same A…

There is no evidence the subject of the article is a terrorist. The “terrorism” story presented by the government is pretext.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's undeniable that the Atlantic has become overly polarizing (like every other American outlet). But for every Pulitzer winner, they have 5 other writers writing overly-partisan clickbait. Right now under their "Most Popular" column, the top article has "Trump" in it. Trump has been out of office for over 6 months, and people are still fucking writing about him, still giving him coverage . If Trump wins again in 20…

Right now under their "Most Popular" column, the top article has "Trump" in it. Trump has been out of office for over 6 months, Have you somehow failed to notice that the former guy is both legitimately significant in the news (legal troubles, ongoing "fraudit" movements) and the defacto leader of US Republicans?

Every time I see "the former guy" I read it as "he who must not be named." What is the origin of this and why do people do it?

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now under their "Most Popular" column, the top article has "Trump" in it. Trump has been out of office for over 6 months, Have you somehow failed to notice that the former guy is both legitimately significant in the news (legal troubles, ongoing "fraudit" movements) and the defacto leader of US Republicans?

That's valid, but writing blatant incendiary opinion pieces titled "There’s a Word for What Trumpism Is Becoming" isn't helping. People should look at Trump being deplatformed from the big social media sites, how much of a resounding success it was, and do that: deplatform their crummy opinions about him being spread. Stick straight to the news.

What's incendiary about the opinion piece? Did you even read enough to find out what the Word was?

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now under their "Most Popular" column, the top article has "Trump" in it. Trump has been out of office for over 6 months, Have you somehow failed to notice that the former guy is both legitimately significant in the news (legal troubles, ongoing "fraudit" movements) and the defacto leader of US Republicans?

Every time I see "the former guy" I read it as "he who must not be named." What is the origin of this and why do people do it?

Infantilized milliennials co-mingling fantasy universes with politics because it's their only frame of reference for understanding the world.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#87
post #78

I remember watching video footage of fabricated camps in the Balkan wars made by CNN and BCC in the mid 90s (I forgot the name of the video hosting website that was popular back then), following years of similar articles. Nothing changed really, people are as dumb as they ever were and even easier to manipulate nowadays. Americans and their allies are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in the Middle East…

Thank you. This is an important comment in a world lacking nuance and cynicism of mainstream media narratives.

I don’t know what it will take for Americans not to be mislead once again by evidence as flimsy as satellite images and vials of washing powder.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#88

After visiting Auschwitz, I expected (or maybe hoped) that the world would never let it happen again. “How could they do this?”, People asked. “That would never happen today” people murmured. Yet, here we are. Reading the 15th article about it, while the White House deletes tweets that likely anger the CCP They should be removed from most favored nation status. Governments could do a lot more but don’t

I feel the opposite, we started to hear so much about China overnight around 2019 that I can't help but feel it's another war the US is starting to brew and preparing the public opinion for it. Kosovo, Iraq, Syria, ... The pattern is the same everytime, the media pick a target to prepare the opinion for the warmongering. Is China doing awful things? Of course. But so is Saudi Arabia, the Yemeni crisis currently dwarf the problems in China (and Syria at the time when the US chose to intervene). I don't know what should be done, but at least US citizen please don't fall blindly for the N-th iteration of the "one and unique evil enemy of democracy that must be dealt with" du jour.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#89
post #5

I'm glad he made it to the US. Of course because it's The Atlantic, they were obligated to implicate the US as a co-conspirator: "Islamophobic discourses that gathered strength in the U.S. have been central to China’s efforts to justify its Xinjiang policies". Yeah, of course it's all really our fault, of course. Keep in mind, The Atlantic is a lifestyle magazine.

I fail to understand why it is the west that speaks up for these Muslims, whilst the Islamic countries remain quiet. Where is the outrage from Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran? Why are the US the ones accused of needing to do more? Shouldn't Islamic countries at least do something?

[dead]

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe stop financing them? We are voluntarily paying them to manufacture most of our stuff.

(Assuming "we" here is the US) Trade embargo is a possibility, and the US has done it before. But only to smaller countries; it's a strongarm tactic, and the US's trade arm is not strong enough to do more damage to China's economy than the US would suffer cutting those ties. When an opposed nation is weaker than one's own, one can use sanctions and trade embargoes. When they're the same strength or larger? Trade emba…

I think 99% of Americans certainly have the stomach for it. The 1% that derive their income from skimming the difference created by cheap Chinese labor don’t.
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