Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#141

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

trboyden wrote: post #136

jessaustin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cutoff I've seen for the 1% is $11M net worth. Is everyone poorer than that, "suffering"? What kind of world do you live in?

It's easy to throw around numbers without understanding the people behind them. Say the plumber whose business is worth $10 million dollars, pays himself $100k, and re-invests the rest back into his business and his employees. Is he rich? No. That's the problem with ideological socialism. You just want to stick it to the guy who is rich on paper - it has nothing to do with actually improving peoples lives.

I'm not a socialist at all, let alone an "ideological" one. My motivation is not to make people poor. My motivation is to arrange some sort of sovereignty for the vast majority of people. As long as billionaires choose all our public officials [0] while paying minimal taxes [1], we don't have majoritarian rule. If we did have it, this country would be better-run and better for both the people who live here and everyone else in the world.

Even if we can assume there is a single ten-millionaire working plumber (and really, that's far-fetched), such a person won't be harmed if all of the billionaires get trimmed back to her level.

[0] https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trov...

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#142

Post by chickenpotpie » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

trboyden wrote: post #116

chickenpotpie wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Americans pay many fees and taxes that go to environmental concerns” Doubt. Environmentalism is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of US governmental spending. Edit: it’s .2% of the budget. Defense is a whopping 14%. We spend 70 times less on environmentalism than military and we’re not even at war. Source: http://saveepaalums.info/EPA+costs+to+taxpayers

And your point is what? You just provided the exact evidence to what I already stated. Parts of the gas tax, excise taxes, vehicle sales tax, recycling fees, etc... are all fees that Americans pay that are supposed to go to addressing impact on the environment. But the government only spends 0.2% on it. Where did the money go? That is exactly my point. Most of it went to pay pensions that the government over promises…

1) most of those taxes aren’t specifically for environmental policies. For example, vehicle taxes go to fund roads 2) no, most of government spending does not go to funding pensions and there’s absolutely no evidence to support that. That claim is absolutely ludicrous.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#143

Post by steveBK123 » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

xboxnolifes wrote: post #121

steveBK123 wrote: post #45

This is pretty obvious. My most outspoken Green New Deal supporting friends & family who were reposting social media of Greta & AOC are also 0-1 child households with SUVs. It's hashtag activism. No one wants to make sacrifices. The only solutions are going to be finding ways to grow our way out of it and incentivize good things (fuel economy, EVs, rail, solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal heat pumps, etc). Neither Degr…

> Even today - look at how tax incentivized solar is, and how fast the break-even is.. and yet how few people take advantage of it? In most areas? Not fast at all, and very close to the expected life of the panels for consumer-grade house panels considering the up-front investment.

Have you used any calculators from an installer like Tesla or frequented solar owners forums to read about actual experiences?

It is extremely dependent on the state you reside, how much electric you use & the energy company you have as incentives vary.

Tesla, in NY on PSEG LI for example- $9K would get you 8kW solar w/o storage $20K would get you 12kW solar + some storage, installation and tax included

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#144

Post by steveBK123 » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 2:56 AM UTC

trboyden wrote: post #140

steveBK123 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New York State with Fed, state and utility incentives it's like 4 years.

Hmmm. No. The payback is 20 years, which is the length of the panel life, and the limit on time the utilities have to pay you for the energy. After that, they get the energy from you for free.

You are making sweeping negative statements without specifying where in your experience this is the case. 20 year pay back would have to be a state with super low electric prices and absolutely zero incentives.

Please specify where this is the case and why, per your math.

Fed is 22% tax rebate, NY state is $5k incentive.. and power in the state ranges in the 20-30c/kWh range.. so pretty expensive power with pretty good incentive.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#145

Post by trboyden » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #144

trboyden wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. No. The payback is 20 years, which is the length of the panel life, and the limit on time the utilities have to pay you for the energy. After that, they get the energy from you for free.

You are making sweeping negative statements without specifying where in your experience this is the case. 20 year pay back would have to be a state with super low electric prices and absolutely zero incentives. Please specify where this is the case and why, per your math. Fed is 22% tax rebate, NY state is $5k incentive.. and power in the state ranges in the 20-30c/kWh range.. so pretty expensive power with pretty go…

Yes, continue the explanation with your math, including the part where you don't actually get that rebate; as part of the solar program financing, you have to hand that rebate over to the bank to pay the finance fees, which is factored into the financing. Otherwise the monthly payments go up, and you end up paying more per month than you generate energy. I was in RI and RI rates and program is similar to NY's.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#146

Post by trboyden » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

chickenpotpie wrote: post #142

trboyden wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your point is what? You just provided the exact evidence to what I already stated. Parts of the gas tax, excise taxes, vehicle sales tax, recycling fees, etc... are all fees that Americans pay that are supposed to go to addressing impact on the environment. But the government only spends 0.2% on it. Where did the money go? That is exactly my point. Most of it went to pay pensions that the government over promises…

1) most of those taxes aren’t specifically for environmental policies. For example, vehicle taxes go to fund roads 2) no, most of government spending does not go to funding pensions and there’s absolutely no evidence to support that. That claim is absolutely ludicrous.

Newsflash, most taxes have loopholes in them to allow the money to be used on things other than what they were intended for [1]. Vehicle taxes are used for multiple purposes, not just roads. Currently, 7.2% of GDP goes to pensions [2], and that is just the federal government's part. States' contributions would easily double that figure.

[1] https://reason.org/policy-brief/how-much-gas-tax-money-state...

[2] https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/pensions_spending

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#147

Post by trboyden » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

chickenpotpie wrote: post #142

trboyden wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your point is what? You just provided the exact evidence to what I already stated. Parts of the gas tax, excise taxes, vehicle sales tax, recycling fees, etc... are all fees that Americans pay that are supposed to go to addressing impact on the environment. But the government only spends 0.2% on it. Where did the money go? That is exactly my point. Most of it went to pay pensions that the government over promises…

1) most of those taxes aren’t specifically for environmental policies. For example, vehicle taxes go to fund roads 2) no, most of government spending does not go to funding pensions and there’s absolutely no evidence to support that. That claim is absolutely ludicrous.

In case you need me to Google that for you some more...

US GDP is currently 21.43 Trillion dollars.

7% of that is 1.5 Trillion dollars.

The 2020 Federal budget was 4.79 Trillion dollars.

So, pensions are roughly a quarter of federal government spending every year and growing.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#148

Post by chickenpotpie » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

trboyden wrote: post #147

chickenpotpie wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) most of those taxes aren’t specifically for environmental policies. For example, vehicle taxes go to fund roads 2) no, most of government spending does not go to funding pensions and there’s absolutely no evidence to support that. That claim is absolutely ludicrous.

In case you need me to Google that for you some more... US GDP is currently 21.43 Trillion dollars. 7% of that is 1.5 Trillion dollars. The 2020 Federal budget was 4.79 Trillion dollars. So, pensions are roughly a quarter of federal government spending every year and growing.

Since when is a quarter “most of”

You’re disagreeing with yourself

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#149

Post by trboyden » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

chickenpotpie wrote: post #148

trboyden wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you need me to Google that for you some more... US GDP is currently 21.43 Trillion dollars. 7% of that is 1.5 Trillion dollars. The 2020 Federal budget was 4.79 Trillion dollars. So, pensions are roughly a quarter of federal government spending every year and growing.

Since when is a quarter “most of” You’re disagreeing with yourself

If you plotted all the other things the government spends money on, pensions would be the biggest chunk. Stop being dense.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#150

Post by trboyden » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

chickenpotpie wrote: post #148

trboyden wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you need me to Google that for you some more... US GDP is currently 21.43 Trillion dollars. 7% of that is 1.5 Trillion dollars. The 2020 Federal budget was 4.79 Trillion dollars. So, pensions are roughly a quarter of federal government spending every year and growing.

Since when is a quarter “most of” You’re disagreeing with yourself

By comparison, the US only spends 3.4% GDP on the military per year.