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People Staring at Computers

kylemcdonald.net

331–340 of 349 posts

Re: People Staring at Computers

#331
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with that assessment. To my mind, the act of capturing faces in and off itself isn't even the reason why he was investigated. Consent from members of the public is an entirely separate discussion. This boils entirely down to him not having formal consent from Apple. He simply walked into the store and quite literally installed a small application on each Macbook without Apple's consent. > I remember being a b…

Hi, if you have any reference on why I needed consent to install an app in the Apple Store, I would love to hear! Because the case never went to court I didn't get a chance to hear a prosecutor spell it out. And my attorney at the time was unsure how they could possibly make that case, so I didn't get it from him either. But a lot of people here in the comments seem to believe that the case is clear. I'm not sure whe…

So, this is the first time I read about your case. I couldn't help but think of Aaron Swartz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz

Basically, he downloaded open access journals from an academic repository. But he did it by physically connecting a laptop to the MIT university network and hiding the device in a servicing space without authorization.

Downloading open access papers isn't an issue in and of itself. In fact, it's pointed out that Swartz wasn't prosecuted for theft or copyright violations. The charges mainly were founded on alleged fraud and breaking and entering.

https://crln.acrl.org/index.php/crlnews/article/view/8637/90...

The law applies in Aaron's case was the CFAA. The same law under which you faced scrutiny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030

Just like you, Aaron Swartz got into the sights of the Secret Service at the time. The difference between you and him is that Swartz was actually arrested, arraigned and finally indicted by a federal grand jury.

(The CFAA stipulates that the Secret Service has the authority to investigate you under 18 U.S.C. § 1030(d)(1) see: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030)

> the case is clear

On the contrary.

The big criticism on the CFAA is that its application has spilled over into tort law and contract law. It's a law which defines computer and wire fraud in incredibly broad terms and phrases. This leads to criminal convictions within a civil law context. The CFAA creates a up a massive potential for being made liable for daily, unassuming actions - e.g. sharing a password - transforming a misdemeanor into a felony really fast depending on the context / circumstances.

As a result, the CFAA is an example of a law where the bar / standards for prosecution are determined / tested / evaluated on a per-case basis through the judicial process.

It's also why it's so hard to get clear cut answers from the EFF or your lawyers. Sure, there's precedent, but it remains unclear how things would have panned out in your specific case since it never went to court.

In Aaron's case, it was later pointed out that MIT didn't even actively seek federal prosecution:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324809004578637...

> why I needed consent

That's the thing. Strictly speaking: it's a choice, not an obligation. Laws and moral values or principles aren't preemptive. They don't stop you from doing something anyway. Their purpose is to create a formal framework of consequences that tie into your behavior.

Liability then is the probability you're going to be held accountable in a court of law.

(In the same vain: copyright doesn't stop you from actually copying protected works. It only has carries weight if it actually gets enforced. That is, the rights holders decides to seek damages, and/or the state seeks to prosecute you. And even then, you really only face hard consequences - fines, damages, jail time - if a court rules in the plaintiff's favor.)

The CFAA specifically explicitly mentions the condition "without authorization" a grand total of 10 times when it defines violations under 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a).

All in all, when you entered the store, went to a machine and installed that program, paying attention that you didn't have to agree to any terms of service, you very much entered that grey, murky, muddled area of broad interpretation of the CFAA, contract and tort law.

Not having that explicit consent or authorization creates a liability: if you were spotted or caught, you'd potentially face consequences per the legal framework and its interpretation in a court of law.

... and that's exactly what happened to you.

Probably someone at the Apple store caught onto what you were doing, made an internal report which found its way to Apple's legal team. Corporate legal compliance provides a playbook and one of those steps involves notifying law enforcement and, ultimately, the Secret Service.

Unlike Aaron Swartz, you were lucky in that the authorities felt that there wasn't enough grounds to make a case against you and press formal charges before federal court. From their perspective, that's a cost / benefit trade off: it's just not worth spending time and resources pursuing legal action if the outcome is already tenuous from the outset.

> a lot of people here in the comments seem to believe

There's a difference between legal truth and moral truth.

From the point of view of the legal framework, all you did was expose yourself to several legal liabilities. The legal framework itself doesn't hold any opinions whether that's smart or dumb. You were lucky that there were no serious consequences beyond a visit by the Secret Service.

The public, however, look at your actions through a moral lens. They see someone who willingly exposed themselves to such liability, and members of the public can/will hold and voice personal opinions about what happened.

While you never went to court, there's a consensus that your behavior did cross a moral line. Put more succinctly: "Who in their right mind would do a guerilla style installation of a desktop application on Macbooks in the Apple store and assume there's no potential for serious legal consequences?"

That's value attribution akin to "Why would you decide to run a red light in downtown Manhattan, in front of dozens of witnesses, law enforcement camera's,... and run the risk of getting caught?"

People on here feel like you made a bad judgement call regardless of who you are, or the project in and off itself. And that's even perfectly compatible with how they feel about the CFAA, Apple, the U.S. Secret Service and so on.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#332
Does it take one full year for a FOIA request to complete? Why does it take so long?

On the other hand, the document does seem thorough (I only skimmed it) from a first glance

Re: People Staring at Computers

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had sort of a similar reaction to this but then I thought that the artist here seems to have done this only to show people they are being surveyed or that hidden surveillance is easy. > Probably because they got off the first time. Imagine all the companies and governments doing exactly what this artist did, without any remorse or intention to show it back to the public. And they do not get caught, forget getting o…

> I had sort of a similar reaction to this but then I thought that the artist here seems to have done this only to show people they are being surveyed or that hidden surveillance is easy. If you want to make an art piece exposing how much violence happens in our society, you don't do that by acting violently yourself. If you do that, you're not an artist exposing a societal wrong, you're the perpetrator, and should b…

I think you do not understand. The artist wanted the show what is already happening, just something we are simply not protesting about in masses. Like the level of such hidden information grabbing is massive, but what do we citizens care? The photo had an effect, which bits and bytes are not having.

Yes the artist did something totally illegal and should be prosecuted. Who is going to prosecute the governments? I like your strong emotions and fail to understand why you do not see this is exactly what the artist hopes will happen - more emotional take on the current situation.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had sort of a similar reaction to this but then I thought that the artist here seems to have done this only to show people they are being surveyed or that hidden surveillance is easy. If you want to make an art piece exposing how much violence happens in our society, you don't do that by acting violently yourself. If you do that, you're not an artist exposing a societal wrong, you're the perpetrator, and should b…

I think you do not understand. The artist wanted the show what is already happening, just something we are simply not protesting about in masses. Like the level of such hidden information grabbing is massive, but what do we citizens care? The photo had an effect, which bits and bytes are not having. Yes the artist did something totally illegal and should be prosecuted. Who is going to prosecute the governments? I lik…

If you want to stress that [a certain crime] is already happening, I do not think it's an acceptable form of expression to commit [a certain crime] yourself, on unwitting victims.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#335
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP here. Thanks for taking the time to share the (scary) connection you made while reading. While this story has been picked up by security folks, I am definitely not a security researcher :) This project did help me to think more explicitly about security, founding a NYC-based group called "artsec" where security researchers and media artists worked together. One of the members was Samy Kamkar, who you may know for…

As a privacy enthusiast, I am very mildly (because I was not directly affected) annoyed that you undertook this project. I see your post discussing it as tacitly attempting to move the overton window in a direction you want it to go. > Whether it was ethical or not is a much more complicated question, and something that we each have to decide for ourselves. (from the article:) > What was probably 10 minutes felt like…

Thanks for spending time thinking through some of this :)

I think it "felt like 30" because I was nervous. Not because I thought it was illegal or unethical, but because I was breaking social norms. I see this as different from acting "unethically", and closer to what Erving Goffman would call a "breaching experiment".

I definitely did not want to raise any flags in the store itself, hence the staggered exit and furtive behavior. Again, not because I thought it was illegal or unethical, but because there was a certain way I wanted to see everything play out. If I got kicked out before I had a chance to exhibit the work, it would have made for a distractingly complicated story. I think this point is difficult for some folks who can only see this as a prank or security research, and don't understand how artists think and work and craft stories.

Regarding the question of what constitutes "public space" and legality of of using peoples likenesses for profit, there are some other great responses in this thread which explain the details (like the one here by sellyme). It's interesting for me to hear how most folks on HN assume that photography in the US operates more like the EU.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#336
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

reading through the FOIA document, LEO was very clear about which laws were broken.

A charge being filed is a formal process in the legal system that has specific implications. In this instance, while a search warrant was executed, no charges were filed.

I'm not claiming charges were filed. I'm claiming (and the docs claim) laws were broken.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#337
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, if you have any reference on why I needed consent to install an app in the Apple Store, I would love to hear! Because the case never went to court I didn't get a chance to hear a prosecutor spell it out. And my attorney at the time was unsure how they could possibly make that case, so I didn't get it from him either. But a lot of people here in the comments seem to believe that the case is clear. I'm not sure whe…

So, this is the first time I read about your case. I couldn't help but think of Aaron Swartz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz Basically, he downloaded open access journals from an academic repository. But he did it by physically connecting a laptop to the MIT university network and hiding the device in a servicing space without authorization. Downloading open access papers isn't an issue in and…

Wow, incredible response! I appreciate you taking the time to respond :)

I am very familiar with Aaron's case. I think your analysis is correct: some people believe I made a bad judgement call, and the CFAA is broad enough that this created a liability, even though we cannot know whether it was legal. I think my frustration with most armchair-analysis (not including you, CaptArmchair) is that folks confuse their moral certainty (I "made a bad judgement call") with legal certainty ("this is the kind of thing the CFAA protects us from"). But the law is a lot more complicated.

For me the concern is exactly (d)(1). When the CFAA is overly broad, and the ability to investigate is granted to all "offenses", where does that leave us? Can Apple cry "CFAA!" at anything they don't like? In practice, there are some checks and balances: in this case, Judge Lois Bloom decided to sign the warrant; Judge Judith Philips refused to prosecute. Is this enough? To me, seeing the ways the CFAA has been abused in other cases, it's not so clear.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#338
post #321

in Kashmir at least, there is a big thing about "Six months later, I still get nervous when I hear an unexpected knock." this late night knocking has been connected with bad omen because for the past 30 odd years, many homes have gotten bad news of their loved ones being killed or they having disappeared. that said, if you have to go to a neighbour house, or a friends house, you never just go and knock. people might…

OP here. Thank you for sharing this. I'm lucky in that this is the only bad knock I've had. And after a few years this effect slowly disappeared for me.

Thanks for reading. If you have the time, https://www.hrw.org/report/2006/09/11/everyone-lives-fear/pa...

Found this just now. There is a line

"Suspicion and fear continue to permeate the Kashmir valley. A knock on the door late at night sends spasms of anxiety through households, afraid that a family member will be asked by the security forces or militants to step outside for "a minute" and then never return."

They have put it better than me but the idea is the same. People hear dread the knock and that is somehow a part of our identity and culture now

Re: People Staring at Computers

#339
post #308

This reminds me of a random, but chilling, scene in "Minority Report". The protagonist confronts a man he thinks is responsible for killing his child. The man decides to reassure the protagonist by explaining how kind he was to the child, and made sure the child didn't suffer when he killed him. He's presenting it as though this is a legitimate defense for such an obvious violation. The part that sticks with me is th…

OP here. Thanks for taking the time to share the (scary) connection you made while reading. While this story has been picked up by security folks, I am definitely not a security researcher :) This project did help me to think more explicitly about security, founding a NYC-based group called "artsec" where security researchers and media artists worked together. One of the members was Samy Kamkar, who you may know for…

I want to respond to you here because I think you've captured my point quite well in two ways, though maybe unintentionally. I really hope this gives you some personal insight somehow.

(Part I)

> I understood (and still believe) what I did was legal.

As you mentioned before, this work produced anger and fear, but you believe it was legal. I take that to mean that people in general understand what you did was wrong (morally) but the snapshot of the legal code at the time hadn't caught up with this intuition yet (as far as you know).

From a practical standpoint, I get why this is important to you. I don't have much to add on the legal side because I'm not a lawyer and I think it's focusing on a detail that glosses over the big picture of your actions. I feel like you're fixating on it for that exact purpose, though.

"I thought of violating rights in a way legislators hadn't even dreamed up yet! Violated tons of people's rights along the way, but the important thing is that I found a spot where those legislators forgot to dot the i's and cross the t's. That's what we should focus on". I wholeheartedly disagree. I think the focus is, and should remain, the people involved.

Whether you found a loophole or not is, in my mind, such a distant inconsequential second to the primary focus of your actions and their effects. You doing them in a possibly legally creative way is focusing on the wrong thing.

(Part II) > It is also undeniably art.

I assume this is based on me using "art" in quotes in another response, and you misunderstanding why I used the quotes.

So, imagine someone was punching people and the reason they gave was "boredom". I would use quotes there too, not because I doubt whether or not they were experiencing boredom, but because the word is being used as though it were a sufficient explanation of their actions. While it might be part of the explanation, it glosses over the most salient part of their action: the punching people bit. They also had a desire to punch people, and that desire is not encapsulated in the standard definition of "boredom", but they're using it as though it were in a way to gloss over it, even though it's the most important part of the whole thing. I think it's a sneaky trick to deny personal culpability so I'm putting the word in quotes.

Similarly, your use of "art" feels the same. Whether the end result had any artistic merit is beyond the scope of my comments. I'm saying that "art" as a motivation glosses over the most salient part of your actions: your desire to take something private irrespective of others desires to give that. The standard definition of 'art' doesn't adequately encapsulate that desire: I wouldn't say the most salient aspect of artists is that they behave in this manner. I think it's similarly a sneaky way to try and deny personal culpability by masking the most salient feature behind a more accepted term. But, to be crystal clear, what you did was take moments of people's lives they might not have wanted you to have and turned it into a spectacle for yourself... whether this resulted in art or salad is such a wildly distant second consideration it's practically immaterial (as far as me and others with similar reactions are concerned), let alone whether or not the resulting art or salad is legitimate... it's why your words echo the character in the movie saying "I was gentle".

For what it's worth though, I think it's nice to see you do sort of care on some level how your actions impact others, gives me a little bit of hope.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#340
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author was caught installing a remote administration tool on someone else’s computers and using that RAT to take surreptitious photos of the computers’ users which he then posted online for personal gain. Seems to me that the legal system was working as designed here, protecting the public from this individual’s actions. It’s strange that he’s getting a free pass in the HN comments for hijacking computers, steali…

Hi, OP here. Just wanted to add one point of technical clarification: it wasn't a RAT, it was a C++ app that used the QuickTime SDK to connect to the camera, OpenCV to run face detection, and curl to regularly send the results to a hacked-together PHP script that uploaded them to Tumblr. It sat in the dock while it was running, with a silver Apple logo as the icon.

> with a silver Apple logo as the icon

This is somewhat concerning, to be honest, since it seems like you're impersonating Apple/system software.

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