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Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

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Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#2
As a person that started programming on X11 in the late 80s and still uses vim daily, I can't think of a better environment than Visual Studio (possibly with the vi plugin) for programming. It is actually sad that guys like the author of this post and some hardcore Linux geeks pride themselves in the lack of good IDEs.

The two main arguments are:

1) C# needs more boilerplate class code than C++ or other languages. Wrong. It definitely needs less boilerplate code than C++ and is close to Python and Ruby.

2) C# and Visual C++ have huge class libraries, which makes it impossible to use without an IDE. I'm sorry, but I would always go for the language with the big class library, rather than the one without it. Also, C++ has fairly hefty Unix libraries, too.

I guess the real problem is sour grapes. For languages other than Microsoft's and Java (and maybe Lisp - I don't know), there aren't any good IDEs, which really understand your code, are stable and bug-free, and provide useful refactoring tools (e.g., change the name of a method and update all of its invocations). For one, the lack of a good IDE and toolchain really does reduce efficiency in large projects (although I would guess the average Rails project is not that large). It also steepens the learning curve. While learning Scala I've spent ours trying to find a mistake in a single line, which neither the IDE nor the compiler could reasonably point out, but Visual Studio would have explained right away.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#4
The title was a plug for windows, the gist was to try out unix editors before you decide on one, and the common thread was this wandering around the IDE world comparing random features of various products.

As somebody who has hacked code with both notepad and batch files and various IDEs, I can say unequivocally that that most IDEs are configurable enough to win hands down.

Pick a feature, and you can either find an IDE that comes with it out of the box or easily code one up. Good IDEs are a superset of good text editors.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this didn't look like too good an article. It looked like a big morass with "Paul Graham" stuck in about half-way down, no doubt triggering the auto-feed into HN. (grin)

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#5
I think UNIX users, seeing they're never going to get something as kickass as VS simply adopted an elitist approach and claim that for various reasons (language, vi, emacs) they don't even need one. The benefits of VS are obvious: - tabbed: (could you live without a tabbed browser?), also control+tab brings up a smart switcher - search: suppose you have a large project and are looking for a function call, irrespective of the language. VS brings up a docked window where you can double-click to jump straight to the line (compare with eg. TextMate, where search results are displayed in a window on top, so you can't see the results) - solution explorer: see the files and click them if you need them - for supported languages: code refactoring such as "smart" renames - and so on... - important: "it just works", it's fast, stable, etc.

I've been trying to find something comparable for MacOS --- it doesn't even have to be an IDE, as in I don't want it to understand the code or compile it, just be a comparable text editor to VS. TextMate is promising, but it's not there yet, lots of little things are missing (good search, tab switcher, etc.) So for now I'm using Komodo Edit, which is pretty cool, only problem is that it's cross-platform and uses some middle API layer, so it's kind of slow (right-click a tab and wait a second for the menu to appear).

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#6
Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment.

So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job?

Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something else entirely without it affecting the world around you and the requirements that you have a job which needs to get done?

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#7
post #2

As a person that started programming on X11 in the late 80s and still uses vim daily, I can't think of a better environment than Visual Studio (possibly with the vi plugin) for programming. It is actually sad that guys like the author of this post and some hardcore Linux geeks pride themselves in the lack of good IDEs. The two main arguments are: 1) C# needs more boilerplate class code than C++ or other languages. Wr…

Agreed.

The article pretty much reveals that the author has never used a good IDE like Visual Studio for anything besides the obvious like adding new class-files, making some GUIs and then running a compile.

I bet he didn't even customize the default layout, panels and toolbars.

My list of top 3 features in Visual Studio, and I suspect most of them to be in Eclipse as well:

1) The built in debugger which can be invoked at any time, having conditional breakpoints and which automatically tells you where your code fucks up, with full statefull variable inspection. This single feature has saved me more hours than I can possibly count up trough the years. For any project not microscopic, I can't imagine not having a feature like this.

2) IntelliSense and code completion. Having the editor automatically look up all possible members and fields while writing code isn't just handy when it comes to speed and avoiding typos. It allows constant discovery of features in the .NET libraries whenever writing code. And when it stops working, you know you just did something wrong in your previous line of code. Absolutely invaluable.

3) The built in refactoring tools. Granted Resharper provides you with a even better toolset, but the importance of having a editor which actually understands your code as more than just "text" can't be overstated.

These are just a few of the things which I love about Visual Studio. It seems obvious to me as a developer that all these features would be handy for any language.

As for the author's praise of emacs as the text-editor which can be hacked and extended into something resembling a Lisp-IDE (using Lisp no less!), I guess he missed the memo that Visual Studio already is an IDE and can be extended infinitely as well. Last time I checked there were addons for Visual Studio for Python, Ruby and Perl. And addons for Visual Studio can be written in any language with a .NET compiler, Lisp included.

That the author somehow feels more "limited" when using a IDE, that is a editor with intelligent code-related features, than when simply using a editor, show that he is clearly full of himself.

To me, that seems about as intelligent as complaining about how you are feeling more "limited" with unused commands in /bin/ that you don't fully know or use, than if the commands weren't there at all.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#8
post #5

I think UNIX users, seeing they're never going to get something as kickass as VS simply adopted an elitist approach and claim that for various reasons (language, vi, emacs) they don't even need one. The benefits of VS are obvious: - tabbed: (could you live without a tabbed browser?), also control+tab brings up a smart switcher - search: suppose you have a large project and are looking for a function call, irrespectiv…

Given what features you describe as "benefits of VS", it sounds like you haven't actually used any of the other editors you claim it is better than, since they have most of the same features. I'd guess most UNIX programmers have used Visual Studio at some point in their programming life (its hard to avoid it!), and the reason they don't like it is because their experience wasn't very good.

I used Visual Studio for a week for a small project and got so sick of its interface that I ended up using it solely for the "compile" button (since the project had to use the Visual C compiler).

The Visual C compiler has its own problems: for example, it is completely incapable of maintaining stack alignment, which required us to write a rather large workaround in the x264 code to disable all functions that depend on stack alignment when compiling with MSVC. Its lack of C99 support is also rather aggravating and gnaws at me every day when I find out that I have to reorganize the code I just wrote because I can't do something like declare a variable somewhere other than the top of a function. It all makes me want to throw away support for MSVC completely, but there oddly enough still seem to be people who try to compile x264 with it...

In summary, there seems to be this arrogant attitude among Windows programmers that the UNIX programmers don't use their tools because they're being "elitist"... but in reality, they don't use the tools because they don't like them. And there's plenty of good reasons not to like them.

(Which strikes me as odd--I've always found Windows programmers to be on average more elitist than *nix programmers--the former insists that their single IDE is unquestionably the best, while the latter will recommend dozens of editors, saying that you should pick the one you like most.)

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#9
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

You can code java extremely well just using a text editor (Shock horror!)

The idea you can't, or that you'll be less productive than an IDE user is just idiotic.

What has the language got to do with anything? Yes, java is sometimes verbose, so? If most of your time is spent typing, you're doing it wrong IMHO, not matter how verbose the language.

Re: Of course MS Windows is better It has Visual Studio

#10
post #6

Expand your horizons a little. Learn to use Vim or Emacs, then spend a year doing serious development in something like Ruby instead of C# or Java, and do it in a Unix-like user environment. So does the author suggest anyone working with Java or C# should quit their job? Or does working with vim also provide you with an alternate space-time continuum which allows you to "just" spend one year doing doing something els…

No. But probably Emacs does.
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