Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout • Hacker News Board

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#71

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

eplanit wrote: post #50

varelaz wrote: post #16

Developers are getting too spoiled. Did someone do the same research for teachers for example.

I think we learned this past year that at least a few teachers are quite exceptionally spoiled (disappointing, and for me a bit surprising). Maybe I'm biased by the witnessing the antics of the California teachers union, but their ranks have been an embarrassment to the profession. Their continued push-back against returning to regular classes has grown tiresome (California has decided, with union pressure, to defy C…

Yeah, teachers benefit from a social cachet that is outsize related to their true efficacy.

They are not nearly as effective or as important as people make them out to be.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#72

Post by morpheos137 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

Honestly as somebody not working in software development these posts seem ridiculous to me. The pay is great, the physical work environment is good, if you work for a FANG company you might get free food, access to a corporate gym, and other amenities.

Can somebody give example of another job that is better?

I do agree though that America's work culture is bad as a whole and does not afford sufficient work life balance in most jobs. But SWE have one of the best jobs out there, it seems from somebody looking in on the outside. There is a huge lack of understanding what other people do for work. Many jobs are much harder than an Amazon pick and pack position. I bring that up because Amazon is frequently mentioned as a bad employer here. See for example junior investment banker working 80 hours a week making power point decks for tight deadlines.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#73

Post by jquery » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

throwawayswede wrote: post #56

This is such a great example of bullshit studies. Yeah I'm gonna go on a limb and say this is a marketing campaign. It's an insult to science to call this a "study". From the pdf: > The fieldwork of this study was carried out at remarkable speed, from the 23rd to 24th of June 2021 Data was collected in 1 day. Is this a joke? No it's not! > The population sampled included Software Engineers aged 18+ living in the Unit…

I’m guilty of posting before reading the article. I’m glad you pointed this out. Sounds like an awful study.

There’s true burnout and then there’s feelings of stress. They aren’t the same thing at all. I know because I’ve experienced both. Burnout cuts you down to your soul. I haven’t programmed professionally in 2 years and the thought of doing so makes me nauseous. That’s burnout.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#74

Post by cloverich » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #36

How much of the workload is just the dev shortage/insufficient staffing? I am currently the only dev on my team because of departures (there should be 4). Now, it is not really all that in production yet so it hasn't required late nights or waking up at odd hours, but it does linger in my mind that this could be a big issue if it grew a lot and my team didn't. I would hate to support it alone. A friend of mine is mis…

It might also be applicants recognize that its not a healthy place to work -- interns staying up all night to fix production errors is a red flag. Then the problem is a bit self re-enforcing, and the only solution is to reset expectations and deliverables to maintain a healthy pace of work. If that pace is not possible, and the company can't offer competitive compensation for the scenario (ex: "We're asking you to carry the company, so here's some extra meaningful equity") then its in a downard spiral and its merely people abandoning a sinking ship.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#75

Post by Spartan-S63 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #2

If you were a professional painter and every couple of months, someone snuck into your art studio, threw out all your brushes, paint, canvas, and then dumped a huge load of requests for you to "fix" your old paintings, I'm pretty sure you'd get burned out pretty quick.

I also think some of it comes from the expectations of how much time someone is productive in a day. It’s as if the expectation is that you spend all eight hours of the day making brush strokes on the canvas. It’s not practical and it’s exhausting, especially when you’re not feeling particularly motivated or just need time to think about the work ahead.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#76

Post by GoOnThenDoTell » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #54

jeffail wrote: post #38

Anecdotally I'd say professions that often double up as a hobby and don't have a significant material or energy cost to exercise will be more susceptible to burn out. If you're _really_ into software engineering and struggle to pace yourself then burn out will often stop you sooner than finger fatigue or your computing costs. I'm not saying workplace pressure etc isn't a factor, but those are also similar factors in…

It’s an interesting idea, but I don’t know. Lawyers and doctors also say the workload burns them out. Some doctors have to do 24 hour shifts which are more than 3x physically demanding than working 1 8 hour day. I understand what you mean by hobby though. It’s toxic to discount people feeling shitty. But the biggest complainers I know - maybe the shittiest people - get into programming or the guilded professions to m…

They shouldn’t be forced into 24hour shifts, I’m sure they’d have an easier time with regular work hours

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#77

Post by pixl97 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #19

I feel they should clarify what they mean, and what respondents meant, by 'burnout'. Burnout is an extreme state and I am extremely surprised that 83% would feel that way. From the actual study " A total of 83% of Software Engineers reported feelings of burnout with only 17% reporting no burnout. 55%, a majority, reported “great” or “moderate” levels of burnout. " What is a "moderate level of burnout"? This is self-c…

So burnout is a binary state of on or off?

Or is it a continuum where you go from slightly stressed to "I'm walking out that door right now and never coming back"

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#78

Post by cloverich » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #46

I wonder if software presents a unique situation as we generally make a pretty decent salary and to transition to a new career involves a pretty significant pay cut. So some developers become trapped in jobs they hate with golden handcuffs. I really don't enjoy software development at all, but at this stage, to even think about doing something else would result in a massive pay cut. I did it once when I was younger,…

I was thinking a lot about Golden Handcuff situations and in a weird sense its artificially creating the actually bad scenario where someone is stuck in a job because they NEED it to make ends meat. You can be sure people in low paying jobs with low mobility are also burnt out. The difference is recognizing that golden handcuffs is an artificial situation and money doesn't create happiness (once you cross that base threshold). Its easy to see in others but hard to act on yourself. Ultimately its one of those things where you just need to be principled -- never stay at a job (career, etc) because of Golden Handcuffs. Its just like building flexibility or resiliency into an engineering system. You don't need to specifically justify it, its just a good principle to follow as a general rule.

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#79

Post by shusaku » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

codyswann wrote: post #6

This is why I have a tough time putting much weight into the soft-sciences. I don't see any operational definition of "Burnout" so this is like asking people if they feel "fast". How about something like "How many times a week do you feel like not coming into work?" But these subjective terms are useless.

I don’t think the soft scientists should take heat because what appears to be a report released by a marketing company was less than rigorous…

Re: Study finds 83% of software developers feel burnout

#80

Post by dgb23 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #65

Someone wrote: post #20

If you read https://haystack-books.s3.amazonaws.com/Study+to+understand+... , you’ll see Q1. To what extent, if any, do the following statements apply to you? I feel burnt out from work. On a four-point scale, that scores 21%, 35%, 28%, 17%. So, they took everyone except those who said they didn’t feel burnt out at all, and got 83%. I think asking for feelings of burnout exaggerates the issue of being burnt out by a…

> I think asking for feelings of burnout exaggerates the issue of being burnt out by a huge factor. Is there a better scientific method to quantify burnout?

Not sure, but I'd ask questions around symptoms. A doctor also doesn't ask whether you have illness X, but rather if you have symptoms Y and Z and tests them.

Burnout has some pretty severe symptoms associated with it, several of them can be taboo in certain circles. It has strong overlap with depression for example. If 83% of developers have these symptoms, it would be shocking to me.