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Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

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Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#191

Forgive me for asking a dumb question, and I mean no wrongthought in asking it: if I'm vaccinated, why should I care if others aren't? Does it change anything for my life from here? EDIT: thanks for the answers, exactly the info I needed to update my prior beliefs.

1. you can still catch things as vaccines are not 100% (some are 50-60% effective, mRNA are 90-95% so far) 2. It can mutate in people that catch it to avoid vaccine / cause other issues. Imagine if it started causing blindness... would you care then of being forced to take a 5-10% / 50% chance of catching it? 3. No chance of wiping it out without everyone vaccinated. 4. Some people can't get vaccinated or it wont wor…

> 1. you can still catch things as vaccines are not 100% (some are 50-60% effective, mRNA are 90-95% so far)

Sure, but it's far less likely to be severe even if you're in an at-risk group.

> 3. No chance of wiping it out without everyone vaccinated.

Until it burns through the unvaccinated population and people build up natural immunity. I'm not arguing against vaccines, I got mine and I encourage everyone else to, but don't act like vaccines are the only way to get immunity or that they're enough to get rid of it entirely.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#192
post #185
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I see doctors who have 5-7 more years of studies in the field than me lining up for the vaccine that is a useful signal. Let me share some similar signals that I see. Let us talk about the VAERS database. I wonder why is it not made in such a way that it can collect high quality data? Like for example, make strict mandates to the healthcare people to document each and every AEFI that they notice. But right now…

> I wonder why is it not made in such a way that it can collect high quality data? Because it's made in such a way that it can collect all data from self-reporting as well. It's meant to be a tool find signals in the noise, not be restrictive or definitive. > But right now, the covid vaccines are not even in the list of vaccines whos events are reportable under law That list seems to be things which are legally manda…

>Because it's made in such a way that it can collect all data from self-reporting as well.

Obviously, I know that, which is why I am asking the question.

>It's meant to be a tool find signals in the noise,

How does it make sense to mix signal and noise together, and then trying to separate them on the other end? To me it it appears that it gives an opportunity to reject all the signal as noise. We can see that happening already, where news article that report on data showing up in VAERS calling it as unreliable because it is self reported.

Also, I asked specifically about not strictly mandating reporting of all AEFI events, you seemed to have ignored that important part of the question. So basically instead of allowing any one to do the reporting, allow only the healthcare provider who administrated the vaccine to do it.

Also, some studies have estimated that only 1% of events are reported. So one can only speculate the actual numbers?

Why throwaway such an important body of data? Does not make any sense at all.

>That doesn't mean other things can't be or aren't being reported.

Basically the document makes a distinction between legally reportable and merely encouraged. I am not sure why that distinction is there in first place, but the concern is that covid vaccines, even though under EUA, fall under the latter and not in the former.

>What part of that link says that? Hard to tell.

Sorry, here.

>OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022.

>Why? What sort of risk do you think it might be? What sort of power do you think the WHO has to suppress effective treatments in countries around the world?

Basically since W.H.O is considered an authority, if a local authority takes a measure that contradict W.H.O, and later it turn out to be sub-optimal, then the local body will find it hard to justify in front of the people, and any political opposition. It is a risk most local authorities will not take, as I see it.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. you can still catch things as vaccines are not 100% (some are 50-60% effective, mRNA are 90-95% so far) 2. It can mutate in people that catch it to avoid vaccine / cause other issues. Imagine if it started causing blindness... would you care then of being forced to take a 5-10% / 50% chance of catching it? 3. No chance of wiping it out without everyone vaccinated. 4. Some people can't get vaccinated or it wont wor…

5. When unvaccinated people end up in the hospital, hospitals get stressed to their limits. This results in fewer beds for me and my family if we end up in a hospital for a different reason. This is also causing job burnout for nurses and doctors.

Interesting.

Society bends over backwards to accomodate ever-increasing levels of obese people. The majority of baseline hospital "stress" is due to morbidities caused by, and strongly associated with, obesity.

Why are we shunning the unvaccinated, a rapidly decreasing proportion of the population, but promote plus-size models, build ever-larger movie theater seating, and denigrate "fat shaming" in response to a problem that 1. exists largely as the baseline hospital "stressor", and 2. increases among the population monotonically?

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#194
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's your personal responsibility not the harm those around you as much as possible Sure. But there is also a bigger responsibility to oneself. To not do things that might harm themselves. So with that conflicting forces, it becomes a matter of opinion and perception. So it becomes no longer selfish, and just common sense.

> So with that conflicting forces, it becomes a matter of opinion and perception. So it becomes no longer selfish, and just common sense. All information points the disease being worse than the vaccine. It's not common sense to avoid it. It's highly irrational. If people are really concerned with not harming themselves, they _will_ get vaccinated.

> It's highly irrational

> All information points the disease being worse than the vaccine.*

* : for the population cohort above approximately 50 years old or a BMI greater than 30.

For better or for worse (for society), it appears healthy-weight people under 50 making the choice to not get vaccinated on a calculus of myocarditis, menstrual complications, blood clotting, and various other longer-term risks are, in fact, not being "highly irrational"

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#195
post #192
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder why is it not made in such a way that it can collect high quality data? Because it's made in such a way that it can collect all data from self-reporting as well. It's meant to be a tool find signals in the noise, not be restrictive or definitive. > But right now, the covid vaccines are not even in the list of vaccines whos events are reportable under law That list seems to be things which are legally manda…

>Because it's made in such a way that it can collect all data from self-reporting as well. Obviously, I know that, which is why I am asking the question. >It's meant to be a tool find signals in the noise, How does it make sense to mix signal and noise together, and then trying to separate them on the other end? To me it it appears that it gives an opportunity to reject all the signal as noise. We can see that happen…

> Why throwaway such an important body of data? Does not make any sense at all.

Presumably it's not the only body of data, though, particularly when we're talking about worldwide, rather than just the USA. Side effects are detected in other countries too.

> OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects

So ... you're not required to report suspected covid-vaccine health problems your employees might be having. It seems a poor fit for something you'd want employers to do anyway? Much more suited to the healthcare system.

> if a local authority takes a measure that contradict W.H.O, and later it turn out to be sub-optimal, then the local body will find it hard to justify in front of the people

Good reason to stick to well-evidenced treatments then, regardless of the WHO, as if more reason was needed.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#196
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. Some people can't get vaccinated or it wont work on them. They will catch it and die if others are not getting it / spreading it. I think that needs to be highlighted more. It's like wearing seatbelts, but for other people. I would consider that the fabric that most societies are made of, taking care of the people that can't for themselves, and in many cases through no fault of their own (e.g. genetics).

I don't think that's really the case. There are very, very few people who cannot take these vaccines due to allergies etc, and nobody claims the herd immunity threshold is anywhere close to 100%. To suppress it to the point that there are much greater threats in such a person's life only requires reaching that threshold. Unfortunately, public health officials have admitted in public they are lying about the threshold…

> There are very, very few people who cannot take these vaccines due to allergies etc

That is correct, allergies are very rare. I'm talking about patients whose immune system is weakened, either on purpose, e.g. transplant patients, or because they have an auto-immune disease (HIV etc.) or simply because their immune system is weak as a result of another disease (e.g. cancer) or they were simply dealt a weak immune system at birth (genetics) or their immune system is weak because they are very old.

Then add infants, children and pregnant women who can't get vaccinated in the majority of cases.

Now add the whole anti-vaxx crowd, people who became the victim of FUD, people who simply don't care, people who don't get their second shot, and it doesn't look very good, does it?

> The actual group safety arguments never come with concrete numbers to assist with the underlying intuitions and that is suspicious.

There are plenty of models to give you concrete answers, but there is even more uncertainty in the model assumptions, so we simply don't know with certainty. In any case we are already starting to find out in different countries.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point is that the myth that unvaccinated people are the part of the population creating enhanced variants is false. Incorrect. By logic, 95% (or whatever % you want) of the vaccinated population will not catch virus. As such, virus cannot evolve in them. Logical right? This is what they study says. > ... anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission ... The vaccines we have PREVENT transmission with var…

The numbers are between 95% of Pfizer at his best and 50% of Sinovac. And we are not vaccinating to avoid a pandemic, we are doing it during the pandemic making the risk of it happening much higher. But the final point I was trying to pass is that isolation of the sick will slowly push the virus to evolve in more contagious but less risky variants. Undetected infections in the vaccinated might cause strains that evad…

> And we are not vaccinating to avoid a pandemic, we are doing it during the pandemic making the risk of it happening much higher.

I bet you would like to go back in time and tell the people that vaccinated against polio that they were doing it wrong too?

We are vaccinating to stop the pandemic.

India is an example what happens without vaccines btw

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#198
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5. When unvaccinated people end up in the hospital, hospitals get stressed to their limits. This results in fewer beds for me and my family if we end up in a hospital for a different reason. This is also causing job burnout for nurses and doctors.

Interesting. Society bends over backwards to accomodate ever-increasing levels of obese people. The majority of baseline hospital "stress" is due to morbidities caused by, and strongly associated with, obesity. Why are we shunning the unvaccinated, a rapidly decreasing proportion of the population, but promote plus-size models, build ever-larger movie theater seating, and denigrate "fat shaming" in response to a prob…

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, and give an answer to what appears to be rhetoric. Choice of vaccine is a single binary choice that essentially creates a step function. Food, on the other hand is a continuous function with a daily effort required to decide what to eat. While choosing to be unvaccinated may be it’s own daily struggle, it’s not the same order of magnitude as the struggle not to eat.

Now as to the body positive trend. I don’t quite agree with it, but there is a current belief that body shaming tends to backfire with individual weight loss, and that being pro body helps lead to better general health.

Personally I think much of the obesity epidemic is more a mental health epidemic. There are a lot of people who use food as a short term mood enhancer, and I’m reminded of experiments with rats showing that rates of drug addiction go way down when the rats are provided with an environment that better suites their needs.

That said, the current over abundance of highly processed food is probably the hardest thing to overcome in terms of obesity. Processed foods tend to act in the body quicker than our feedback mechinisms can handle, short term feelings of full happen too late, and long term satiation is harder to maintain. I’m not sure that fat shaming isn’t in the same category as victim shaming, the real vitriol should probably be pointed at much of the food industry instead.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#199
post #73
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>quite misleading Possibly. Or accurate.

So can't generalize. Which was the point.

You can generalize that traditionally vaccines don't last in the body.

In this specific case, you can argue the lipid layer throws a wrench in assumptions, and then the onus is on you to prove some proposed mechanism for long term effect. Because the protein the vaccine targets is not human, the risk of the immune system turning on the body after training was rhetorical, because if the antibodies were targeting our body, it would have come up by now.

Another theoretical concern that has not manifested. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement...

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#200
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So with that conflicting forces, it becomes a matter of opinion and perception. So it becomes no longer selfish, and just common sense. All information points the disease being worse than the vaccine. It's not common sense to avoid it. It's highly irrational. If people are really concerned with not harming themselves, they _will_ get vaccinated.

> It's highly irrational > All information points the disease being worse than the vaccine.* * : for the population cohort above approximately 50 years old or a BMI greater than 30. For better or for worse (for society), it appears healthy-weight people under 50 making the choice to not get vaccinated on a calculus of myocarditis, menstrual complications, blood clotting, and various other longer-term risks are, in fa…

> For better or for worse (for society), it appears healthy-weight people under 50 making the choice to not get vaccinated on a calculus of myocarditis, menstrual complications, blood clotting, and various other longer-term risks are, in fact, not being "highly irrational"

I'd be curious to read source of the statistics you're referring to (i.e. what rates of these complications you see and how they compare to the complications of covid itself in the same age groups).

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