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The History of Karate

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Re: The History of Karate

#61

Post by vnorilo »

datameta wrote: post #42
vnorilo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The street effectiveness of a MA is a function of time spent sparring, something that is prevalent in the arts you mention, in addition to coverage of standing and ground game. Strikers will have just a brief window of opportunity before grapplers take them down. On the other hand, even super effective grappling art like BJJ becomes pretty useless if you face two assailants.

Against two assailants, if there is no chance to escape the fight through words or running, the best deal is to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible to the more confident of the two. The other will usually lose the fire. Speaking as a stand-up striker. Ymmv.

Agreed - what I was trying to convey was that BJJ is a very good bet for defending yourself one on one, but if you face multiple assailants it is useless. A good striker may stand a chance against two or three aggressive drunks (untrained, not methodical) with the strategy you described.

Re: The History of Karate

#62

Post by bloniac »

codingdave wrote: post #47
bloniac wrote: post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

I don't know many parents whose goal is for our children to learn to fight. We want them to be strong and healthy. To learn to have fun exercising, to learn control and the ability to listen to others, learn from others, and work with others. Martials arts is great for all that. So are other sports and activities. I've studied martial arts for 20 years of my life - never did I have a goal during that time of learning…

>> I don't know many parents whose goal is for our children to learn to fight.

Try asking parents whose kids do karate. I’m guessing a large number of them will say “self defence”, especially parents of girls.

Re: The History of Karate

#63

Post by gabereiser »

lanevorockz wrote: post #5
gabereiser wrote: post #3

Growing up, I learned karate. It wasn’t until I met a Kung Fu practitioner that I realized I know nothing Jon Snow . I switched to Kung Fu and never looked back. I still think karate is good because of its structure and competitions but if you are battling yourself, as an art, as a discipline - Kung Fu is king. Great read though. Can’t wait to see it in the games.

Kung Fu is more a philosophy than a Martial Art. Hence no Kung Fu MMA champions

Ummm, Cung Le… You should try it sometime. See if your opinion stands.

Re: The History of Karate

#64

Post by paulmooreparks »

fastball wrote: post #9
bloniac wrote: post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

I was always under the impression that Karate wasn't particularly useful for combat / self-defense. Krav Maga is the martial art that I've always thought of as actually useful for self-defense.

There isn't a single art that I'd call "karate." There are many styles, and they have many schools and lineages.

The style I studied was taught for free in the sensei's basement, and it was, to put it bluntly, a rather brutal art. Not many parents would be into it (all of the students were adults in my dojo).

Not to take anything away from Krav Maga and similar styles. There's just a lot of variation in what is called karate.

Re: The History of Karate

#65

Post by paulmooreparks »

wirrbel wrote: post #30

I think there is an interesting YouTube series up by Jesse enkamp who kind of builds the theory that karate was more of a grappling martial arts but kind of got turned into a boxing sport when the Japanese adapted it from Okinawa. They already had Jiu-Jitsu and were kind of looking for another martial art akin to boxing. Basically Jesse visits China, finds people showing him Kung fu katas that resemble goju ryu katas…

My thought as well. I studied Uechi-ryu (sister style to Goju-ryu), and we did lots of grappling. It seems to be less emphasized in other karate styles I'm familiar with (I'm happy to be proven wrong here).

Re: The History of Karate

#66

Post by weimerica »

bloniac wrote: post #11
fastball wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was always under the impression that Karate wasn't particularly useful for combat / self-defense. Krav Maga is the martial art that I've always thought of as actually useful for self-defense.

That or boxing or kickboxing or wrestling or bjj. Those are the only truly effective combat sports. Perhaps judo too.

The only push-back I have on BJJ (as I practice both KM and BJJ) is that there is a huge sport-orientation whereas KM, assuming trained competently, is a combative system such that you'll often get a "practice this slowly and carefully because you can and will cause damage to your partner."

Personally, I have a little harder of a time training BJJ for the reason that everyone thinks it is the best for real-world defense but the reality is many moves open you up to serious maiming in a combative environment. Take for example the typical "get past the guard" move, I most always have the option in a true fight of grabbing your knees and splaying them outward leaving you with an unfortunate convalescent leave, perhaps permanent injury.

More generally, if you're going for true-blue self-defense any sporting-oriented art is good but not great - you'll do well against an untrained assailant, which is likely a good chunk of the threat model.

Re: The History of Karate

#68

Post by 2wrist »

bloniac wrote: post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

I am not the biggest karate fan, I did it growing up. But it is just one way to think, to move, act and react.

All martial arts give you a different flavour, they teach you different things. There is not one style that rules them all.

Tai Chi as you mentioned, in Lee style and others is way to move and flow. To think and be. Unsurprisingly it is a foundation for Kung Fu (grappling, striking etc.) and the foundation for weapon styles.

So a kata/form is a way to train yourself to move a particualar way. I appreciate that a 'stylised dance' may not be to everyones taste. But it is training your body and your mind to move a particular way. To react a particular way. To encode a way of holding yourself, of moving through space.

Similar to Tai Chi being a foundation to a sytsem of fighting. So too is karate. You can augment it with Aikido, Judo, JuJitsu. You can add weapons too.

The point is they all have value, (Samba and Systema look class) when you are younger you chase that outer excitement of testing yourself against others, I guess as you get older you start to think more about how to move and flow and think and be.

Sometimes there is a need to be violent, but I am not sure if that is what a child should be taught. Self defence is not just what a martial art is for, it is so much more than learning to hurt someone else.

IMHO.

Re: The History of Karate

#69

Post by watwut »

bloniac wrote: post #8

I was a great believer in karate as a combat sport for many years. The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation. Karate has value in combat, but it’s certainly not as effective as I originally thought. I took my son to do karate training for a year and watched the classes and honestly it seemed pretty worthless to me as a way of learning to fight/defend yo…

> The arrival of MMA proved the true effectiveness of each of the martial arts in an actual combat situation.

MMA is not an actual combat situation. A lot of what makes fighting style effective in real combat is simply not allowed in MMA (for good reasons). Things like:

- attacking your penis and trying to cause injury there,

- attacking your throat and trying to cause injury there,

- sticking fingers into eyes,

- trying to break knee by kicking where it breaks.

Obviously it is not taught in any of those sports. Because they are sports.

Re: The History of Karate

#70

Post by watwut »

bloniac wrote: post #62
codingdave wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know many parents whose goal is for our children to learn to fight. We want them to be strong and healthy. To learn to have fun exercising, to learn control and the ability to listen to others, learn from others, and work with others. Martials arts is great for all that. So are other sports and activities. I've studied martial arts for 20 years of my life - never did I have a goal during that time of learning…

>> I don't know many parents whose goal is for our children to learn to fight. Try asking parents whose kids do karate. I’m guessing a large number of them will say “self defence”, especially parents of girls.

1.) You are guessing.

2.) If you need to explain yourself to strangers who demand to be explained why your kid does this or that sport, you will say something simple and socially acceptable. Neurotypical people wont start explaining in nuance.

3.) No one ever asked me why my kids do dancing or swimming. It is simply not question anyone asks normally.

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