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Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

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Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? Like, turns out XYZ compounds gives cancer but that only become detectable after 18+ months. Although I admit I don't know if regular trials would uncover these either. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just providing a possible answer.

> What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? That same question can be asked about covid so I don't understand how this single point brings anything to the discussion. We don't know the future. We don't know the future vaccine effects just like we don't know the future for covid effects. We do definitely know that the effects of covid (even if you discount them by the fact that not everyone gets covid) are…

If everyone else is vaccinated except you, you're protected from the effects of both covid and the vaccine.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#72
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been hundreds of millions of vaccinations. What unforseen danger is there at this point? Be precise.

What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? Like, turns out XYZ compounds gives cancer but that only become detectable after 18+ months. Although I admit I don't know if regular trials would uncover these either. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just providing a possible answer.

>What if there's unpredictable long term consequences?

This is actually a smaller issue. The big issue is that measures based on science that is tainted with trust issues must not be mandated.

Have written about this here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27817926

Basically, I think science require a global change in its perception that is updated to modern times.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#73
post #70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The side effects and consequences are short term, as in less than one month. The substance is broken down by you body, and all that remains is immunity. I am not sure this idea of "traditional vaccine" is true. The contents of Vaccines can be drastically different. And you cannot generalise that. > substance is broken down by you body, and all that remains is immunity. It is quite misleading, to say the least.

>quite misleading Possibly. Or accurate.

So can't generalize. Which was the point.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#74
The amount of unsubstantiated and scientifically unproven or even completely unstudied claims in this thread is truly staggering.

These mRNA vaccines are safe for children? How on earth would you know that if the vaccines have only been studied on a handful of healthy kids for a couple of months. Does nobody understand the amount of time needed to do this kind of study properly and thoroughly?

I'd also love some scientific studies that prove that the following claims are true, because as far as I know they aren't:

"No chance of wiping it out without everyone vaccinated."

"It's like wearing seatbelts, but for other people."

"Variants develop primarily in unvaccinated people"

"The main goal of all these actions is to end the pandemic in just a few years."

"In the UK, most people getting into hospitals now with severe Covid are young and unvaccinated"

Oh and I expect to be thoroughly downvoted for this because, you know, group think and all.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#75
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the components have been used before, these things aren't that new. mRNA tech itself has been in development since the 80s, and for immunisation since about 2012. It's gone from the body within a few hours AFAICT. If you're that worried, go for the J&J or AZ vaccines, which are more 'traditional' and don't use mRNA.

Being new or not is not the crucial point. What matters is that it's in the interest of the society at large that as many people as possible are vaccinated quickly. This might present certain incentives to treat possible side effects in a political way, basically downplaying them. I'm not saying this is what is happening now, but it has definitely happened in the past. When you read the history of Pandemrix[0][1], yo…

> Being new or not is not the crucial point.

When we're talking about "we don't know the long term effects", it's certainly a crucial point, because it shows that we can have a good idea of the long term effects already.

I agree there's likely to be huge political pressure to downplay side effects, however the scale of this rollout and the attention it's getting worldwide mean that it's going to be very unlikely such things sneak through, simply due to the size of the vaccinated population.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secondly, I'm getting the COVID vaccine not because they believe that there is a high risk of getting serious COVID myself, but to help others -- some at-risk people can't get the vaccine at all, and immune-suppresed people are still at significant risk post-vaccine (although still lower risk than without). People not getting the vaccine who are able are being incredibly selfish. They are exercising the opposite of…

I think a lot of people just lack the education and context that you have, and so don't come to the same conclusion. Just 25min ago, I was in favor of getting vaccinated myself, but didn't understand why I should care about other people getting vaccinated too. And I'm not a bigot (I hope) or a person more ignorant than the average. If you believe this to be true, I think we can agree that it's probably fair to at lea…

I don't disagree with you that it's a lack of education and context, but I personally don't accept that as an excuse. Information about vaccination is totally ubiquitous. Being ignorant of this is just not okay. So no after a year and half of inundation of information explaining these basic fact I honestly am disgusted that people still hold these beliefs. I basically lose faith in society because of it.

As an aside, I never called you (or anyone else I was referring to) a bigot.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#77
post #58
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been hundreds of millions of vaccinations. What unforseen danger is there at this point? Be precise.

> There have been hundreds of millions of vaccinations. People have been smoking for a very long time without noticing any apparent problem. Vioxx is estimated to have caused a 100000 additional heart attacks in US alone, but no one noticed. This is why we do systematic research. Point is "There have been millions of vaccines administrated", is not a proof for safety. That is not even considering the censorship of Va…

> Point is "There have been millions of vaccines administrated", is not a proof for safety.

No, but with a larger population, any adverse effects are likely to be noticed.

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#78
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I´m less worried by vaccine safety than the vaccine strategy. You don´t normally vaccinate in an ongoing pandemic, usually you vaccinate when a virus is not in circulation. By vaccinating in this way, in an already infected population, you add selection pressure that creates an advantage for more contagious vaccine-resistant strains. This is the real danger in my opinion, but of course side effects of this new vaccin…

> He´s the only one so far that has made correct predictions in this pandemic. How likely do you think is it, that a vast field of virologists, immunologists, molecular biologists, medical doctors and scientists in general are all wrong but this one person is right?

He is not alone in making that connection regarding vaccinating in the middle of a pandemic

As you can see here. I am not sure what the exact time is, but they also suggest this possibility. It appears to me that this is common knowledge..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RuvUkcyJI

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#79

Is seems like a new trend for right wing ideas to be expressed in what would traditionally be considered left-wing concepts and language. Does that mean they lost the culture war or is it just a new phase?

I think we should separate out ideas like "discrimination" from "left vs. right". That would clarify the change that has happened. The language and ideas of civil rights etc., coupled with identity politics, has a political life of its own. And it has been adopted by most major political institutions in the west: "equality", "diversity", "discrimination", etc. Neutrally, this could be called "identity-first politics"…

> Neither the “modern activist left” nor the “alt-right” are political movements, they’re more like religious movements centred on a new mode of identity. Their “political” project is merely that their identities be respected.

While all political and other ideological movements share a certain degree of the character of religious movements, the idea that either for the “modern activist left” or the “alt-right” the political program is “merely” respect for identities is…buying in way to much to some of the superficial language used in each movement, and paying far too little attention ot the details of what each means by respecting their identities.

> This isn’t politics: there is no material, economic, or institutional goal.

It is politics, and the goals are absolutely an intertwined combination of material, economic, and institutional objectives.

For the “modern activist left” we can narrow that to, say, The Movement for Black Lives, one of the (but not the only) organizational and agenda-setting organizations of the “Black Lives Matter” movement, and look at its concrete policy agenda, digging into the subcomponents of the 2020 platform [0]:

* Divest from surveillance, policing, mass criminalization, incarceration and deportation.

* Invest in making communities stronger and safer through quality, affordable housing, living wage employment, public transportation, education, and health care that includes voluntary, harm reduction and patient-driven, community-based mental health and substance abuse treatment.

* Invest in community-based transformative violence prevention and intervention strategies, that offer support for criminalized populations

* Uncouple access to services, care, and support from the criminal punishment system.

* Provide reparations to survivors of police violence and their families, and to survivors of prison, detention and deportation violence, and their families.

* Decriminalize youth under 23.

* Remove police and surveillance from schools.

* Direct resources toward violence prevention and transformative responses that create a nurturing and positive school climate for all students and create opportunities for youth to thrive in community.

* Interrupt and end criminalization and deportation of Black women. Develop and support non-criminalizing and non-coercive, voluntary, accessible, harm reduction-based and trauma-informed responses to unmet mental health needs, drug use, involvement in the sex trades, survival theft, and community and interpersonal violence. These responses must prioritize, promote, and protect the safety, agency, and self-determination of Black women, girls, trans, and gender nonconforming people.

* Ensure that Black women have access to resources that will enable them to escape and avoid interpersonal and community violence, including living wage employment; quality, accessible, and affordable housing; immigration status; universal, quality, and accessible health care; comprehensive, culturally appropriate community-based mental health care; universal, quality, and accessible childcare; and healthy environments.

* Ensure full access to comprehensive sexual and reproductive health care and eliminate discriminatory barriers to health care for all people.

* Eliminate the foster system’s power to permanently and irreversibly destroy Black families through termination of parental rights.

* End profiling, criminalization, police, and prison violence against Black trans and gender nonconforming people.

* Ensure access to safe and equitable, affirming, accessible, quality housing, employment, healthcare, social services, and education for trans, queer, and gender nonconforming people. This includes reducing unemployment and workplace discrimination; providing real, meaningful, and equitable universal health care; and full and equitable access to services, including counseling, community centers, and shelters.

* Affirm gender self-determination in all aspects of life from birth, and ensure freedom from non-consensual medically unnecessary surgeries on intersex infants and children.

* Our entire health care system must be reorganized to ensure the physical, mental, and spiritual health, well-being, self-determination, agency, and autonomy of Black people, to eliminate profiteering insurance, pharmaceutical, and medical equipment industries, and to create conditions that will allow healing of our bodies, minds and spirits, and of the generational trauma which contributes to the war on Black health.

* Elimination of restrictions on entry to the United States that disproportionately target and exclude Black migrants.

* An immediate end to all detention, deportations, Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) raids, roving Border Patrols, and private and public immigration detentions centers.

* Repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills.

* Divestment from immigration enforcement institutions, corporations and border militarization apparatus, including Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

* Mandatory, free, and accessible legal representation for migrants in immigration court, including language interpretation and disability accommodations.

* End the criminalization, surveillance, structural exclusion, demonization and deportation of Black migrants, particularly migrants who are undocumented, Muslim, trans, nonbinary, LGBQ+, disabled, people in the sex trade, people living with HIV, people who have criminal convictions, asylum seekers, refugees, low and no-income people, youth, DACA-mented and under-documented people.

* A moratorium on all prison, jail, immigrant and youth detention construction, without an accompanying expansion of home arrest or GPS monitoring or other forms of e-carceration.

* Decommission all prisons, jails, and immigration and youth detention centers not currently imprisoning people, followed by demolition or repurposing for non-­punitive purposes.

* Retroactive elimination of sentences of life without parole (LWOP) and sentences that will result in death by incarceration.

* Immediate release of all elders, people in comas, on life support, or in end of life care in prisons and jails.

* Immediate release of all political prisoners, and an end to the use of incarceration and solitary confinement as a tool of political repression..

* An end to all jails, prisons, immigration and youth detention, and civil commitment facilities.

* Abolish the death penalty, life without the possibility of parole (LWOP), and death by incarceration..

* Immediately and retroactively decriminalize drug and prostitution-related offenses and invest savings into programs and services identified by people in the drug and sex trades, and implement a full and comprehensive reparations package for people, families, and communities harmed by the drug war and criminalization of prostitution.

* An end to the long-standing monitoring and criminalization of Black people.

* Diversion of public funds used for surveillance to meeting community needs.

* Elimination of gang databases and related information sharing, and provisions giving individuals placed on gang databases with notice and an opportunity to seek removal.

* Elimination of surveillance of targeted communities, including people accessing public benefits, hospitals, and services, disabled people, people in the sex trades, people seeking and providing information about self-managed abortion, political activists, Arab, Muslim, Middle Eastern, and South Asian people and communities, and people on probation or parole.

* End money bail and pretrial detention

* Eliminate risk assessments

* Eliminate criminal punishment fees and fines

* an immediate ban on the use of military equipment by law enforcement and Border Patrol in all circumstances

* an immediate end to the transfer of military equipment to federal, state, and local police, and campus law enforcement agencies, and an immediate end to the use of military equipment by any law enforcement agency, including Customs and Border Patrol.

* immediate disclosure of all military equipment transferred and acquired and its intended use by federal, state, and local governments.

* Eliminate restrictions and exclusions on access to housing, education, employment, social programs and benefits, voting rights, parental rights, and other civil rights based on prior criminal convictions.

There is a lot one could say about this, but among the things one could not honestly say is that it is not material, not economic, not institutional, or not in every respect political in the normal sense of the word.

And if you dig into the demands by other groups that would tpyically be viewed as part of the “activist left” you’ll find the same level of material, economic, and institutional objectives, though the details and focus will differ. And the same, though often diametrically opposed, for groups within the “alt-right” umbrella.

[0] https://m4bl.org/policy-platforms/

Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? That same question can be asked about covid so I don't understand how this single point brings anything to the discussion. We don't know the future. We don't know the future vaccine effects just like we don't know the future for covid effects. We do definitely know that the effects of covid (even if you discount them by the fact that not everyone gets covid) are…

If everyone else is vaccinated except you, you're protected from the effects of both covid and the vaccine.

How so? You can still get covid. Even the people vaccinated can get covid. Besides there is nowhere where everyone is vaccinated but you anyway. Some places have high rates some places have low rates. So your hypothetical situation just doesn't apply anywhere.

Anyway if you'd like an anecdote, I have a friend in Spain who just got the delta variant along with his 4 friends a few days ago. He was about to get his second shot yesterday (obviously it's postponed now) and his 4 friends were all completely vaccinated when they got sick.

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