Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#351

Post by anfilt » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

abrokenpipe wrote: post #252

kube-system wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I rent a car I am not responsible for repairs. You certainly are, in most places, if you crash it into something. This wasn't a failure of the manufacturer's materials or workmanship, it was a collision loss.

Usually rentals require/include max comprehensive insurance (regulations vary based on the state in US), so if the warranty doesn't cover it then the insurance should. While I am on the side of right to repair I don't see how this is that relevant to the issue. It seems like more of an issue with insurance/rental laws, transparency in legal agreements, tesla's pricing & service being a bad deal, and possibly negligen…

A bit off topic, but tar should only be used as temp repair to prevent further damage from water and moisture. For example its winter and you have asphalt shingle roof. Asphalt shingles are brittle when cold so attempting a proper repair could damage more shingles on what was a rather localized problem. Also ice and snow makes working on a roof more hazardous.

An other possible reason would be you don't have enough money on hand at the moment the issue was discovered giving you a few months to set asside enough money. Similar, thing the contractors schedule is packed so a quick temp repair can hold you off while you wait the week or two for his crew to begin work. An other similar issue is waiting on materials if your roof uses a material that is not locally stocked.

Tar also has a nasty problem of becoming brittle from UV light something roofs get plenty of. So instead of flexing under thermal expansion and contraction it just cracks. So its not ideal for anything but a temporary fix.

Now for choosing the most expensive contractor that is on your condo. Although they could have certainly been valid reasons.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#352

Post by smileysteve » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

quickthrowman wrote: post #193

throwawayboise wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying 10 year old cars that are nearly fully depreciated is where you save big money. You can get a dependable car for a few thousand dollars, and even if it needs more repairs than a new car you still come out money ahead especially if you can do small repairs yourself.

> Buying 10 year old cars that are nearly fully depreciated is where you save big money. Not in my experience. You either pay in depreciation or in maintenance, there is no escaping car expenses. A 10 year depreciated car may need a timing belt/water pump, possible head gasket issues, possible transmission issues, etc.

The timing belt and water pump are each Head gasket shouldn't be a problem if the pump and coolant are changed before they go bad.

Anecdotal source; bought a 7 year old bmw at 123k miles (timing chain is still good at 185k), clutch is still good, brake parts cost $250, shocks less than $500, a valve cover gasket and oil filter housing gasket. Coolant expansion tank has to be replaced every 5 years ($150). My 10 years, 180k miles has been a better experience than many friend's first 5 years.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#353

Post by smileysteve » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:39 AM UTC

rdtwo wrote: post #314

Retric wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What messes with the perception is people buy used cars they could never afford new. An apples to apples comparison is what that same car would have cost new not simply what someone can afford because it’s new. A nice new BMW SUV is likely to depreciate 30k in 5 years, but that same car is extremely unlikely to need 30k of repairs if bought after 10 years and kept for another 5. More critically you’re also paying dra…

An older bmw could easily cost you 3-5k a year in repairs . Couple that with lesser but still substantial depreciation and you might find it too be a lot more expensive than you thought.

Anecdotal. But I haven't spent $5k in repairs to my 17 year old bmw in the 10 years I've owned it. I do budget for $1k a year though.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#354

Post by userbinator » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #325

crmrc114 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate, your talking about a brass nipple being threaded into a broken plastic part to replace a plastic reducer that was [probably] poorly ultrasonic welded in place. What I see in the article is a common sense repair. Anyone who turns a wrench is laughing at the Tesla fanboy pearl clutching over this. Not an attack on your post btw, just a general statement that every Tesla owner comes out of the cracks in these post…

I agree with the pearl clutching part. Unless Tesla can state exactly how this fix is inferior to it's original design. Putting a brass nipple in a plastic pipe is a tried and tested process. The stated pressure is 2 psi, or max 5 psi during testing. 5 psi is about 3.5 meters of water column. So the pressure is equivalent to what you get in your home. The piping is essentially house plumbing level stuff.

The piping is essentially house plumbing level stuff.

Much lower pressure, actually - domestic water is supplied closer to 50-60psi.

This fix is only inferior to Tesla because it exposed a design flaw and removed their chance to massively overcharge for a tiny repair.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#355

Post by userbinator » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

Meph504 wrote: post #305

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because of terminology like this "Electrified Garage also notes that the cooling system doesn't get anywhere near as hot as an internal combustion engine, and it's not likely that it would either, given that the operating temperature for most lithium-ion batteries is well below 60 degrees Celsius." >So this repair is made on anecdotal observation of ideal conditions, and disregarding factory specifications, and actu…

> The context here is not "they're half-assing it because the system demand are minimal so they can". It's "this repair technique works just fine on real automotive cooling systems that are much more demanding". Firstly, using a tap to reverse thread into plastic housing, and then using brass threading into the housing and into a cut hose with a screw clamps. Internal combustion or not, its hackish, the article even…

I think the word "hackish" really has a positive connotation here. (Look at the name of this site...)

You don't put metal threads into plastic in something that is exposed to vibration

...have you seen how a lot of modern internal combustion engines --- which vibrate a lot more than an EV --- are put together?

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#356

Post by rdtwo » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:45 AM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #329

rdtwo wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a complicated formula sometimes it works for you but most of the time the manufacturer gets gets the better deal

Why would that be? If I'm leasing a vehicle, not only does the manufacturer need to earn back the cost of manufacturing plus some margin, they also need to earn back the cost of administrating a lease and the cost of selling the car again later (with depreciation). They're not going to cover those extra costs for free, they're going to pass them on to the consumer. So how can leasing a vehicle possibly work out in th…

Simple financial engineering. Sometimes they take the loss but cover it up or push it out using lease terms. The company has profit now but takes a write off later. Good for juicing executive bonus packages.

Also because lease terms are complex they can stack with other promotions or incentives and allow for leases lower than the cost of ownership would have been otherwise. There is a whole lease community dedicated to finding these crazy deals but they wouldn’t be something you could do by just walking into a random dealer.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#357

Post by jayd16 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

passivate wrote: post #102

namdnay wrote: post #3

A bit of a stretch to classify this under right to repair.. if you rent a car from tesla, it’s going to be up to tesla to choose how it’s repaired. And it doesn’t seem unreasonable that they won’t accept a hack fix (however safe it may be) - that car is going to be sold to someone once the lease expires, they just can’t take the risk I would read this as a cautionary tale against renting your cars. If you can’t buy i…

>that they won’t accept a hack fix (however safe it may be) - that car is going to be sold to someone once the lease expires, they just can’t take the risk But why are you calling it a hack fix? Also, why would a competent third-party repair shop be "risky"? A customer should be free to pick out an experienced and competent repair-shop just the way they currently do for their cars. And if they don't want to, they can…

Tbf the unknown is risky. Tesla doesn't want to verify the fixes or the third-party. I agree the customer should have the freedom, but I understand the policy.

>How is the risk different

It's not but Tesla has decided to not participate in it.

Again, I don't think it's the right call, but it doesn't seem nonsensical either.

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#358

Post by cheaprentalyeti » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

Meph504 wrote: post #313

rdtwo wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s own factories use all sorts of shoddy fixes. This is a legitimate fix that you could expect at any licensed mechanic and that Tesla would likely use it they had a parts shortage. Not every repair needs to be done with perfect oem replacement parts. Good luck getting an insurance company to cover 100% replacement during an accident for example.

Ok, So your argument is that someone at a Telsa factory did shady shit, so then the company should accept any third parties fixes? As far as the shoddy work, people keep acting like Telsa is a hivemind, and that every dept. in the company had signed off on these bad choices as a matter of corporate policy. Doesn't seem far more likely somebody working in the factory was worried about making quota, and did a very shit…

>As far as the shoddy work, people keep acting like Telsa is a hivemind, and that every dept. in the company had signed off on these bad choices as a matter of corporate policy. Doesn't seem far more likely somebody working in the factory was worried about making quota, and did a very shitty job?

"You shouldn't have the right to make shitty choices! That's the Big Corporations' prerogative!"

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#359

Post by rdtwo » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #353

rdtwo wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An older bmw could easily cost you 3-5k a year in repairs . Couple that with lesser but still substantial depreciation and you might find it too be a lot more expensive than you thought.

Anecdotal. But I haven't spent $5k in repairs to my 17 year old bmw in the 10 years I've owned it. I do budget for $1k a year though.

You are in the bmw sweet spot I think. Newer ones have even more complex and expensive parts but reliability isn’t better and access is difficult

Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters

#360

Post by toss1 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #325

crmrc114 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mate, your talking about a brass nipple being threaded into a broken plastic part to replace a plastic reducer that was [probably] poorly ultrasonic welded in place. What I see in the article is a common sense repair. Anyone who turns a wrench is laughing at the Tesla fanboy pearl clutching over this. Not an attack on your post btw, just a general statement that every Tesla owner comes out of the cracks in these post…

I agree with the pearl clutching part. Unless Tesla can state exactly how this fix is inferior to it's original design. Putting a brass nipple in a plastic pipe is a tried and tested process. The stated pressure is 2 psi, or max 5 psi during testing. 5 psi is about 3.5 meters of water column. So the pressure is equivalent to what you get in your home. The piping is essentially house plumbing level stuff.

Yes, although I think it is about an order of magnitude less of a problem than that.

My house runs at 60psi, +/-3psi, and I think it is pretty bog-standard for US plumbing. It's about 11m from the basement to the attic, and still needs decent pressure upstairs, so, yes, 2-5 psi is silly low pressure to worry about - it's only going to be a slow leak even while running, the only problem is if it runs out, for which I expect Tesla has a sensor.

This repair is not some janky hack, it is more of an upgrade