When a company like Apple says that only their app store can run on iPhones, HN crowd usually sides with Apple, with the justification that "It is a free market. People can buy another phone if they don't like it." Why doesn't the same principle apply here? If your car company does not offer the right to repair, then buy another car. What is the difference? Both are instances of big companies gating access to their d…
In my view, the real reason is that many HNers work for Apple, but not that many HNers work for Tesla.
Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
161–170 of 564 posts
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why though? What if renting makes more sense for my use case? Why not leave the dealer/bank on the hook for the depreciation and maintenance?
If it makes sense for you, do it. The question isn't who pays the depreciation or maintenance (this is explicitly factored into leases) -- the question is, who can predict it more accurately?
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your peddling FUD. Just because you touched something in a way that wasn't specifically authorized by the original manufacturer of that something doesn't make you liable for anything that something does in perpetuity unless there is evidence that it's actually your fault. Homeowners insurance covers the fire. They probably don't go after anyone unless they have specific reason to believe the loss was probably caused…
I highly recommend you ask an attorney about it, that's what I did (and paid for) and I'm reiterating the opinion they provided. Not an attorney, not your attorney, not legal advice. I'm not in the repair business, and I own no TSLA stock; I have no incentive to peddle FUD, and actively support right to repair. Crucially, right to repair does not mean an absence of or indemnification from liability.
Funny, that's exactly what I did.
> I'm reiterating the opinion they provided
So am I.
I repair and modify things, typically light commercial vehicles and the equipment mounted to or towed by them. I work on the economic low end of the market so I get all the stuff that real shops want nothing to do with and have had to consider how liable I am for my work. I have had these sorts of discussions in a non-professional context (i.e no money changed hands) with an attorney who specializes in businesses in social services settings (so the advice is probably biased toward whatever he finds his clients defending against most often) and aside from the typical disclaimers[0][1][2][3][4][5] that any responsible lawyer will give you I feel confident enough in my analysis that I put my money where my mouth is making similiar repairs in my day to day life.
The general gist of things is that for a successful lawsuit there has to be some evidence that the work you performed caused the injury and even if so there then also needs to be a precedent of strict liability or you would to have had to do something negligent or check the boxes for some other tort, but I've been advised negligence is the one you really have to watch out for in a professional setting. Negligence is a fuzzy concept but it suffices to say that proving it to the standard required for a civil suit would be a very uphill battle for a reasonably standard repair procedure performed in a reasonably standard setting.
Strict liability scares me far more than a lawsuit arising out of alleged negligence. I can do good, defensible work and stand by it. I cannot know all the areas of law where strict liability may be an issue. I cannot control whether my customers use the things I have repaired for them in a strict liability context (e.g. fumigation, overhead lifting) which could make my party to a lawsuit.
No I didn't pay for the advice but for the volume and riskiness of work I do I'm content.
[0] if you're not paying for it it's not legal advice
[1] nobody can make guarantees about what will happen in court
[2] you have the wrong demographics to get sympathy from judges in this state, they'll expect you to know better than to cut corners so don't cut corners
[3] bad facts, bad case law, hope your malpractice kills a skinhead and not a single mother or you'll be the case law
[4] just defending yourself can be no more than a consultation fee or it can be ruinously expensive
[5] if a megacorp or the state sues you everything goes out the window because the playing field is so unlevel.
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't get why that part isn't shielded for one.. There's a whole series of WTFs in this video. * Guy failed to get full coverage on a leased vehicle. * Tesla released car to him without verifying coverage. * Road debris hitting the bottom of the car can result in $16k in damage. * Tesla let him drive off with car after he rejected repair and knowing he didn't have comprehensive coverage. * Critical part of batter…
> because they saved some money by having cooling line fittings be fixed plastic instead of threaded inserts Save a few cents here, a few cents there, and suddenly your $40k car is an astonishing $200 cheaper! Honestly, I never understood why companies do that. It just creates bad PR all around, and nobody chooses a product based on those minuscule differences. Maybe it's more for planed obsolescence than for cost cu…
Also, and more generally, any component that significantly outlasts its design life is overspecified.
"Efficiency engineering". :-/
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#165The article says that the vehicle is leased. That means that the lessor might be in for a rude surprise when he turns in the car at the end of the lease... Tesla will see the untested third-party repair and assess him for the cost of reversing this repair and for fixing the problem their way. Right to repair makes sense, but only for products you own.
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#166A bit of a stretch to classify this under right to repair.. if you rent a car from tesla, it’s going to be up to tesla to choose how it’s repaired. And it doesn’t seem unreasonable that they won’t accept a hack fix (however safe it may be) - that car is going to be sold to someone once the lease expires, they just can’t take the risk I would read this as a cautionary tale against renting your cars. If you can’t buy i…
In that future and without right to repair, a crack in this tiny plastic hose fitting would total the car (heck, depending on your insurer, this already does).
Remember that car insurance costs are pooled. This kind of behavior makes _everyone's_ driving more expensive.
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#167> Tesla was then reportedly willing to return the pack, but apparently still questioned why he would want it. Given that the new pack was $16,000 and a new Model 3 cost just more than twice that, it's clear that the old pack was still valuable. A quick search on eBay confirms this, as used cell modules sell for thousands of dollars.
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I rent a car I am not responsible for repairs. If I am on the hook for the repair bill I should get a choice in how the car is repaired. I can buy whatever tires I want for a leased car. If Tesla wants to make these kinds of demands then the repair should be part of the warranty and priced in to the car. > I would read this as a cautionary tale against renting your cars. If you can’t buy it, don’t! This holds tr…
> The fact that cars depreciate seems like the best reason to "rent" them. Like any other depreciating asset, the renter charges the rentee(sp?) the depreciation anyway, plus a small profit. You appear to be under the impression that renting is better; this cannot be correct. The rent for any asset is ($COST_OF_PRODUCT + $COST_OF_ADMIN + $PROFIT). How do you figure that it's cheaper to pay those additional costs than…
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When I rent a car I am not responsible for repairs. You certainly are, in most places, if you crash it into something. This wasn't a failure of the manufacturer's materials or workmanship, it was a collision loss.
It's a stretch to describe road debris hitting the undercarriage of a car a "collision". You should expect a vehicle to be engineered so that small objects hitting the undercarriage don't cause significant damage. Making subassemblies replaceable in part rather than in whole is definitely a bonus. When they're only replaceable in whole, I do consider it deficient engineering, especially if a small change would make i…
Although if we're just talking plain-english and not legalese, I'd say that your assertion is a stretch: that colliding with debris is not a "collision".
And yes, Tesla repairability is poor. That's kind of what you can expect to get when you prioritize time-to-market above anything else. I like to buy old motorcycles that don't have any parts availability and everything has to be custom done... but I wouldn't do that with my daily driver.
Re: Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair Matters
#170I fail to see how right-to-repair reform would have changed this situation. Tesla's fix was too expensive so the customer went elsewhere... and got it fixed. Problem solved.
Sure, right to repair at it's most basic isn't going to make Tesla make this more repairable, or perform the repair in that way. Since they view the battery unit as a single unit, they don't have to sell component internal parts of the battery unit, or give instructions how to open it - they can just wave that off as a glues box never to be opened.
But - Tesla gave the owner a single option for repairing the car - replacing the entire battery. The owner saw that the batter modules, the groups of cells within the battery case were valuable by themselves - $12k versus the $16k Tesla was charging for a new one. But Tesla would not sell a new battery to the customer, they would only sell the service of swapping the battery, keeping the old one. Surely right to repair, forcing Tesla to sell parts like Batteries to owners, would get around the madness of Tesla keeping your old, damaged, but very valuable battery.