Live data from Hacker News

A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

slimemoldtimemold.com

171–180 of 201 posts

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obesity has an extremely high correlation with poor health. But that's irrelevant as this thread is specifically on weight. "that in a vacuum has no effect of calories out except generally a negative effect (your body will adapt and try to burn less calories)" This is comically overstated. No, your body doesn't magically become super efficient. This is, again, feel good pablum to make people feel better about their s…

> Find any person who is overweight but claims they starve themselves and log and count calories. In 100% of cases you will find a calorie excess, likely significant. Find someone who is a healthy weight but claims they "eat anything they want". In 100% of cases -- okay 99.9% maybe they have a big tapeworm -- they will have a lower caloric intake. I take great issue with you saying 'they claim to starve themselves'.…

>I take great issue with you saying 'they claim to starve themselves'.

I'm being pretty overt that when people make that claim they are often being dishonest. They know they are eating too much. There are psychological issues underlying this, but if someone tells you how little they eat yet they're gaining weight, they're likely lying.

> And, despite your claim, there are also demonstrable differences in the base metabolic rate between people.

Nowhere did I contest this. Men have more muscle mass than women and are generally larger. But between people otherwise equal, claims about varying metabolisms are largely bullshit. It is magnitudes less of an influence than it is held as.

I've been cited as a "fast metabolism" examples many times in my life. I skip meals constantly, can manage to go through a movie without eating a bucket of butter-soaked popcorn and a jug of coke, etc. I eschew all of those things. Then there's a bbq and I eat two burgers and the upper BMI people all gather around to tell the tale about how easy it is for me, what with my "fast metabolism". It's horseshit. It's destructive, self-enabling nonsense.

Another guy mentioned that when his belt size starts getting tight he knows it's time to cut back. Precisely my tactic. There have been a few times where suddenly slacks are a little tight and it isn't a signal that I need to buy new clothes or go to the next rung, but instead means it's time that I skip the occasional snack.

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason when I read the lipostat section I was reminded of decreases in average body temperature trends over time -- probably because of the temperature analogies. I've sometimes wondered if microbiome factors are in play, and by extension, things like antibiotic use (maybe there are some studies about antibiotic exposure and weight gain?). I've usually thought of it in terms of microbiome -> gut -> digestion…

Where can I read more about this?

The body temperature decreases?

This study was being discussed quite a bit when it came out, although there was prior work on it:

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49555

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-human-body-te...

One hypothesis is that there's been a decline in baseline immune activity with decreased exposure to pathogens, better sanitation, better treatment of infections, etc. But people don't know for sure.

I'm not sure that it applies to the obesity crisis as temps have been declining over a longer time period than what seems to be involved in that. But it got me wondering if there's something like that that might have came into play later. My guess is no, that it's something else, but I could see how antibiotic use might somehow be involved.

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#173
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helped me a lot. It was very easy to use, and by not having any off-limits foods or similar, just a calorie target, it helped me find meals that I enjoyed while keeping me full. It also was a nice perspective to have in mind for me. Calories in, calories out means it doesn't really matter what I do today, it's what I do each day that matters.

How do you know the calories of home-cooked or restaurant meals to estimate the targets accurately?

Weighing of components. Keep digital kitchen scales on the table and use them all the time. E.g. if you eat breakfast cereal, put the bowl on scales, press button, put in cereal, remember the weight, press button, pour milk, remember the weight. The same for everything you put on a pan. Don't forget to include the cooking oil, it makes a surprisingly large contribution to the total calories of the meal. If you're sharing meals, then you know the "total calories" you put in it, weigh the final product (it generally will be significantly different than what you put in) and weigh what's on your plate - so you know that you ate e.g. 40% of the total. It doesn't take much time (unless your scales suck), but it does take much attention and looks weird. It's a pain in the ass when starting out, but becomes easier when I can just reuse the numbers from when I made the same thing last week.

Some types of meals are easier than others, though - e.g. if you make a large pot of "non-uniform" soup for the whole family for multiple meals, then it's going to be an estimate. It's socially inappropriate to do it at some situations (e.g. if you're visiting your grandma who's providing a meal), but on most days you should be able to track how much calories you got on that single day.

Some restaurants will provide numbers for their dishes, some won't. For takeaway/home orders weighing gives a good estimate - if you don't have the numbers for some kebab or sushi or pizza, then you can assume that it's going to be the same per unit of weight as someone else's similar product, what matters is how much of double cheese pepperoni pizza you eat, not the particular pizza maker.

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is well known and undisputed. The question is: when can you stop eating less than your body is telling you that you should? Did you ever get rid of the hunger? I lost about 30kg (105 -> 75) by eating less, excersing more, all in about the span of a year. I never stopped feeling hungry overall for this period, constantly had to fight the urge to eat more. In periods where high stress reduced my willpower, I start…

"That is well known and undisputed." Unfortunately, loads of people in this very thread are disputing it. This submission is based upon the bizarre hope that there's a mysterious external influence that's actually causing people to gain weight, and not the merely coincidental simultaneous rise in caloric intake. The psychological element is complex and profoundly difficult. That is without question.

The whole point of the article is that the rise on caloric intake isn't merely coincidental and simultaneous, but there's some mysterious external influence that causes people in comparable conditions to eat more calories.

People in cushy office jobs eating as much calories as they want in 1900 are much less obese than similar people in 2000. How come? It's not that the 1900s office workers put in more effort or attention to limit their calorie consumption and burn more calories, it's entirely the other way around.

People in another culture eating a very sweet-heavy diet (and eating as much of it as they want) apparently consume much less calories than similar people in USA. How come?

The psychological element apparently wasn't as difficult some decades ago - people in 1960s who had as much food as they wanted, and the same kinds of tempting calorie-rich snacks available, were much less obese not because they were better at overcoming some psychological difficulties, but because apparently much fewer of them had such difficulties to overcome. How come?

It would be valid to reduce weight gain to "How to eat as much calories as you should instead of as much calories as you intuitively want" if and only if wanting to eat much more calories than you should is some innate, natural thing. The article points out that the spread of this tendency is a novel thing, it used to be rare, and perhaps it can be made rare again, so it's worth investigating the cause of that unhealthy appetite miscalibration instead of having people fight through the symptom (which they're failing at, because it's hard).

If someone's organism was working properly, they should not need to pay attention to CICO as the body will balance both "CI" and "CO" to get a decent non-obese result - the experience of earlier times and other cultures shows that the human body almost always (96% of non-obesity) does that naturally. If now the same mechanism is failing for 40% of the population instead of 4%, that is not caused by a change in ignoring CICO, people were ignoring CICO hundred years ago as well.

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people say calories they mean calories that can be converted to ATP. This is why fiber is not considered to have calories (for humans, but is for cows) despite containing forms of energy.

You're saying fiber content is actually stripped out of calorie counts on packaging?

I oversimplified but yes almost.

> Determining whether or not fiber calories should “count” depends on context and requires some background. Calories are a basic unit of energy that measure, among other things, how much burning power they provide to the body. Fats, proteins, carbohydrates and alcohol provide the body with energy or calories. The traditional estimates are that 1 gram of fat provides 9 calories, each gram of either proteins and carbohydrates provide 4 calories, and a gram of alcohol provides 7 calories. However, this doesn’t account for differences in how well food is digested and the nutrients available to the body. Poorly digested foods may not release as much energy for the body to use. This is particularly important in the case of fibers.

> Dietary fibers are complex carbohydrates, so some people estimate that they provide 4 calories per gram just like any other carbohydrate. However, others say that calories from fiber don’t count since your body’s digestive enzymes can’t break down fiber. However, fibers differ in how well they are digested or how much energy is available to the body. Some fibers, called soluble fibers, either absorb water and become gels or dissolve in water and reach the intestine where they are digested by bacteria. As they are digested by bacteria, soluble fibers produce short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) that provide your body energy. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) estimates that fibers fermented by bacteria provide about 2 calories per gram of fiber. Insoluble fibers travel to the intestine with very little change. Instead of being digested, insoluble fibers increase bulk, soften stool, and shorten transit time through the gastro-intestinal tract. Because these fibers are not digested at all, the FDA estimates that insoluble fibers do not contribute any calories.

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#176
post #26
post #13

Saying "Calories In Calories Out" is what makes you fat is as interesting as saying "Money In Money Out" is what makes you poor. It's tautologically true but doesn't help anybody.

It also assumes that the human body is a machine with singular inputs and singular outputs, as though it’s a pure function. But it’s more complicated than that. Especially when you bring homeostasis into it, where the body will adjust calorific expenditure downwards in response to sustained reduced calorific intake, as just a single example. But there’s lots of things going on that influence the calories coming in, t…

>It leads to fat shaming by people whom have never struggled with their weight who justify their cruelty by parroting “calories in calories out”.

Is it? In my experience the people who parrot that are people who were fat and through a combination of diet and exercise returned to a healthy weight.

I do agree though there's more to weight loss than just CICO(maybe insulin). Peter attia had a recent interesting episode on obesity and nutritional science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8js28V95flc

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is fructose considered easy to metabolize? It takes drastically longer to convert to glucose than other sugars, requires liver enzymes and can creates gastric upset in excess. It seems quite inefficient compared to carbohydrate sources like starch which are simply chains of glucose molecules that your body separates.

I think you have it backwards: fructose is a monosaccharide which is metabolized almost instantly, and sucrose is a disaccharide which requires additional energy to metabolize. Glucose is the end result, but glucose isn't what is added to industrial foods. So more effort is required to use sucrose than fructose, and I believe that is the source of the issue.

I didn’t refer to sucrose. I said starches which are popular alternative carbohydrate sources to sugar. As far as sugars go, dextrose and maltose are much more easily digested than fructose.

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very possible that there is an external influence that's causing people to feel the need to eat more and gain more weight from what they're eating - this is precisely my point, and the point of the article. The fact that you can force yourself to eat less than you feel the need to and lose weight in the process does not prove, as you seem to think, that weight gain is simply explained by people being weak willed…

Where did they say it had to do with being "weak willed"? That's your projection.

That is the implication, if you look through all the comments: people all feel the same, but some know that they shouldn't eat so much while others make excuses, for "complex psychological causes".

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Find any person who is overweight but claims they starve themselves and log and count calories. In 100% of cases you will find a calorie excess, likely significant. Find someone who is a healthy weight but claims they "eat anything they want". In 100% of cases -- okay 99.9% maybe they have a big tapeworm -- they will have a lower caloric intake. I take great issue with you saying 'they claim to starve themselves'.…

>I take great issue with you saying 'they claim to starve themselves'. I'm being pretty overt that when people make that claim they are often being dishonest. They know they are eating too much. There are psychological issues underlying this, but if someone tells you how little they eat yet they're gaining weight, they're likely lying. > And, despite your claim, there are also demonstrable differences in the base met…

> I'm being pretty overt that when people make that claim they are often being dishonest. They know they are eating too much. There are psychological issues underlying this, but if someone tells you how little they eat yet they're gaining weight, they're likely lying.

The fact that they are overeating doesn't mean that they aren't also feeling very hungry, truthfully. And again, neither you nor I know if it's a psychological issue or metabolic or endocrine or anything else (or a combination).

These are the two key facts that the article is discussing and you are completely ignoring in favor of feeling superior about your self control ("I can go through a movie without eating a bucket of butter-filled popcorn").

Re: A Chemical Hunger: Mysteries

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, but uninteresting. Insisting on this truth is harmful, because it makes an assumption that people can just choose to eat less without any negative consequences. People love pretending that calories in is simply a matter of rational choice, not a complex result of our inner machinery. We are biological machines, and the amount we eat is biologically determined by our bodies (assuming food is widely availabl…

Hey I'm all aboard that. It's under the umbrella of "psychological".

"Psychological" has certain implications that ultimately this is under the individual's control, it's all in their had and they can fix it.

If it is endocrine instead, we would be looking for a drug to fix it, or a specific pollutant that could be removed. No one will tell you 'hey, it's your thyroid, just make it go a little faster'.

Post reply on HN