Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies • Hacker News Board

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#111

Post by songzme » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #74

songzme wrote: post #33

There's a guy in Montana called Paul Wheaton who spent the last 6 years building soil rich in organic matter using no chemicals (pesticides & biocides) in his 200 acre plot of land. There were giant hugelkultur beds 15 ft high it was a crazy sight. He believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I…

what are you doing to your backyard soil?

The dirt in my backyard has been so neglected it has turned rocky.

first and foremost, I'm covering the bare dirt from direct sunlight by covering it with a layer of cardboard (empty amazon shipment boxes).

Next is some aerated compost tea to speed up the microbial activity and loosen the dirt and start the process of turning it into soil. Add some compost along the way

I'm documenting the journey on this forum if you want to follow along: https://permies.com/t/164053/Gardening-Journey#1286751

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#112

Post by amanaplanacanal » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

dsaavy wrote: post #72

songzme wrote: post #33

There's a guy in Montana called Paul Wheaton who spent the last 6 years building soil rich in organic matter using no chemicals (pesticides & biocides) in his 200 acre plot of land. There were giant hugelkultur beds 15 ft high it was a crazy sight. He believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I…

Very cool seeing someone else on HN take on restoring their backyard soil. I've been at it for two years in my quarter acre plot and the results are starting to show, so keep at it! Very interested in your bootcamp link so thanks for posting that. Personal tangent: The property I have was a typical Roundup maintained monoculture lawn without any insect diversity, bees, etc. Now it's teeming with all types of insects…

Just bought a house surrounded by mostly lawn. I’m starting by sheet mulching my lawn with cardboard covered by a thick layer of wood chips. Hopefully the underlayer will be ready for planting next spring. Going to fill in between the food plants with clover, sweet peas, and lupine for nitrogen fixing. I’m looking forward to the transformation.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#113

Post by kickout » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #104

zachware wrote: post #80

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…

What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting?

It's mostly high margin vegetables and spices. Look up gotham greens for a successul and properly done indoor ag startup.

Generally tomatoes and maybe peppers have enough margin and volume to be justify indoor settings.

Things like nuts are a no-go or any sort of wheat/cotton/maize/soybean operation (even specialty applications like edamame have severe uphill battles to profitability)

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#114

Post by amanaplanacanal » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

datavirtue wrote: post #15

I just got back from touring Oregon and Washington and I got to see a lot of fascinating agriculture. Primarily hazelnut trees along with some berries other speciality crops and "hay." The nut tree farmers need some help. They are spraying water scattershot to soak the ground. What's more is that they have the ground prepared as perfectly flat bare soil--I presume to make automated harvesting possible. It looks like…

I believe they keep bare soil under hazelnuts because they harvest by collecting the fallen nuts.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#115

Post by evtothedev » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

If you're a UI/UX designer, and this area excites you, please drop me a line.

We're tackling this exact problem at Yard Stick (https://www.useyardstick.com/) - developing a new way to measure soil carbon that is fast, accurate and affordable, with backing by ARPA-E and in collaboration with the Soil Health Institute.

Later this week, I'm going to post a contract-to-hire position. In the meantime, email me at evan@useyardstick.com

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#116

Post by debacle » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #68

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #57

What is the best criticism of regenerative ag? Everything I see about it is so positive that it seems crazy everyone hasn't switched. Are there really no downsides and it's just institutional inertia/caution holding everyone back?

Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compou…

Paul Wheaton is a grifter, petty tyrant, and mini Hubbard who has built a cult around himself.

He bans anyone from the permaculture subreddit who disagrees with him, which is why there are multiple off-shoot subreddits, including one specifically dedicated to his malfeasance which broaches into criminality.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#117

Post by relaxing » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

mathgladiator wrote: post #77

saalweachter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compou…

I've experienced this, and I've learned to search for the grains of truth. At core, the people doing this are highly disagreeable, and so they form their own opinions and go deep. I think going deep into crazy is natural, and the hard question is trying to balance that out with a deeper truth. At core, I think there is a deeper value in being the control group outside of the modern world. So, can food cure cancer? I…

The study of cancer among the Amish found lower incidence of only a subset of cancers, essentially the ones related to not drinking or smoking, sun exposure (wearing long clothes and big hats), and having few sexual partners.

There’s no mystery.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#118

Post by devonbleak » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

kickout wrote: post #101

zachware wrote: post #80

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…

Sweet, there is only approximately 300 million acres of cropland in the United States alone. Sun == free, rain == free How does indoor ag plan on scaling up for anything other than super high margin vegetables and spices when their competitor (outdoor ag) has no cost associated with sun or rain? Not even to mention soil. edit: I like indoor/vertical ag a lot (when applied correctly) When people try to propose produci…

By providing predictability/consistency/efficiency. Yes you end up paying for things that are otherwise free, but those free versions are at the mercy of nature and nature isn't exactly getting more predictable/consistent. You can also create highly efficient watering systems where evaporation is nearly nonexistent and nutrients are easily distributed meaning you're making way better use of that water. And let's be honest - if you're working with 10" of rain per year you're not just relying on the free rain anyway. California's central valley is also a prime candidate for this sort of thing as they're pumping water out of the ground so fast it's sinking and the underground aquifers are getting destroyed meaning the groundwater can't replenish and they're unable to capture as much snowmelt. That's in addition to importing water from other regions that are on the brink of not being able to sustain those exports. Water's already expensive and about to get more expensive.

And that's not even taking into consideration the higher density you can get indoors vs outdoors - the amount of land that is cleared for ag around the globe is staggering. Getting an order of magnitude more output from the same amount of land, but having to pay for water and light, is likely to make business sense and be better overall for the environment.

Do the actual economics work out right this second? Maybe not. Will they in the not so distant future? I'd bet on it.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#119

Post by beaconstudios » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #116

saalweachter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compou…

Paul Wheaton is a grifter, petty tyrant, and mini Hubbard who has built a cult around himself. He bans anyone from the permaculture subreddit who disagrees with him, which is why there are multiple off-shoot subreddits, including one specifically dedicated to his malfeasance which broaches into criminality.

This guy has control of the permaculture subreddit? That's awful. Permaculture is a great and important movement.

Does anybody know why movements rooted in holism keep getting taken over by people like this? It seems like every movement that starts out by wanting to incorporate high-level perspectives ends up getting burdened with the crystal-spinners and magic-cancer-curers of the world.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#120

Post by danans » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

blueyes wrote: post #24

Montanan here: This is true. One of the regenerative crop types are pulses (lentils, chick peas), and MT produces a lot. https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/pulse-info/resources-pdf/Growing... The state often appears in stories about agriculture in precarious environments (See Jared Diamond's "Collapse" for one example.) Montana is largely a semi-arid desert, especially over the 2/3's of the state that are northern Great Pla…

> Lentils (Lens culinaris Medik.) are produced on over 1.5 million acres throughout the world. They are primarily used for domestic consumption in casseroles, salads, soups and stews. Lentils provide an excellent source of protein (20 to 35 percent), but are limited in the sulphur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. However, consumption of lentils with cereals provides a balanced diet high in fiber, protein and essential amino acids.

> Lentils in the United States are primarily grown for export.

Growing lentils is a great idea, but the developed and developing worlds' palates also need to also change course toward consuming less climate-damaging foods like meat and more lentils, chickpeas, and other pulses.

Already today, pea protein is a major constituent of the newer more realistic meat-substitutes, which is a good trend, but if most lentils just end up being exported and used as some sort of livestock feed, it will make little differences to the climate and environmental issues we are experiencing.