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Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

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Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#21

Post by AlotOfReading »

darknavi wrote: post #6
nikhizzle wrote: post #3

Does anyone have any insight as to why regulators allow a beta like this on the road with drivers who are not trained to specifically respond to it's mistakes? IMHO this puts everybody and their children at risk so Tesla can beta test earlier, but I would love to corrected.

> drivers who are not trained to specifically respond to it's mistakes What would this entail? Perhaps some sort of "license" which allows the user to operator a motor vehicle?

California at least has a specific license for this called the Autonomous Vehicle Operator license. It enforces some minimal amount of training beyond simply having a regular driver's license.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#22

Post by mrRandomGuy »

avalys wrote: post #7
nikhizzle wrote: post #3

Does anyone have any insight as to why regulators allow a beta like this on the road with drivers who are not trained to specifically respond to it's mistakes? IMHO this puts everybody and their children at risk so Tesla can beta test earlier, but I would love to corrected.

Because America does not yet require that its citizens ask mommy and daddy for permission for every thing they do.

It would be a glorious honor to have my 'FSD' Tesla drive into a giant concrete pillar, causing my car to explode and erupt into flames.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#23

Post by mbreese »

ethbr0 wrote: post #9
darknavi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drivers who are not trained to specifically respond to it's mistakes What would this entail? Perhaps some sort of "license" which allows the user to operator a motor vehicle?

Safely operating a motor vehicle via a steering wheel, accelerator, and brake (and sometimes clutch and gearshift) is a completely different skillset than monitoring an automated system in realtime. Novel skill requirements include: interpreting FSD UI, anticipating common errors, recognizing intent behind FSD actions, & remaining vigilant even during periods of autonomous success.

I'm going to posit that none of those novel skill requirements are actually requirements. You don't need to interpret a UI, or recognize intent to know that the car shouldn't turn the wrong way on a one-way street or hit a planter.

Anticipating common errors and remaining vigilant while driving is a requirement for all driving, not when dealing with FSD.

If you are capable of driving a car safely to begin with, then you're capable of recognizing then the car is going to do something wrong and turning the wheel and/or hitting the brakes.

I wouldn't personally trust a FSD beta, but only if it is properly supervised, I think it could be tested safely. But, there's the problem -- how can you really properly supervise this? How many drivers are going to try this and just let the car drive w/o paying attention? Or, using it under controlled conditions, but then giving it too much trust in more adverse conditions?

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#25

Post by H8crilA »

moojah wrote: post #20

This really isn't beta grade software, as it isn't feature complete as the failure scenarios in the video clearly show. I'd call it alpha grade, and it has been that for a while. It's not 2 weeks or whatever unrealistic timeline away from being done, as Elon has claimed for ever. 2 perhaps years if we're lucky, but given human and driving complexity probably way more before even the whole of the USA is reliably suppo…

Like Donald Trump, but for nerds:

http://elonmusk.today/

FSD would be equivalent to the Mexican border wall, I guess?

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#26

Post by optimiz3 »

nikhizzle wrote: post #3

Does anyone have any insight as to why regulators allow a beta like this on the road with drivers who are not trained to specifically respond to it's mistakes? IMHO this puts everybody and their children at risk so Tesla can beta test earlier, but I would love to corrected.

> puts everybody and their children at risk

Oh won't somebody think of the children?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#27

Post by Syonyk »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #15
Syonyk wrote: post #11

I don't understand how something this broken is allowed to operate on public roads. If I drove like Tesla's FSD seems to based on the videos I've seen, I'd be pulled out of my car and arrested on (well founded) suspicions of "driving while hammered." After a decade of work, it's not capable of doing much beyond "blundering around a city mostly without hitting stuff, but pay attention, because it'll try to hit the mos…

> I don't understand how something this broken is allowed to operate on public roads. Also out in a rural area. Running out to pickup lunch a few minutes ago, a young man flipped their old pickup truck on its side in an intersection, having hit the median for some reason. I too don't understand how humans are allowed to operate on public roads. Most of them are terrible at it. About 35k people a year die in motor veh…

Could have been equipment failure on the truck - a tie rod end failing or such will create some interesting behaviors.

> I believe the argument is the software will improve to eventually be as good or better than humans, and I have a hard time not believing that.

I find it easy to believe that software won't manage to deal well with all the weird things that reality can throw at a car, because we suck at software as humans in the general case. It's just that in most environments, those failures aren't a big deal, just retry the API call.

Humans can write very good software. The Space Shuttle engineering group wrote some damned fine software. They look literally nothing like the #YOLO coding that makes up most of Silicon Valley, and deal with a far, far more constrained environment as well than a typical public road.

Self driving cars are simply the most visible display of the standard SV arrogance - that humans are nothing but a couple crappy cameras and some neural network mush, and, besides, we know code - how hard can it be? That approach to solving reality fails quite regularly.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#28

Post by wedn3sday »

I watched a human driver in a BMW weave at 90 mph through traffic yesterday, swerving back and forth between lanes inches from other peoples cars. If Tesla can make a car that's even 1% less dangerous than human drivers, that could be thousands of deaths avoided every year. Humans should not be allowed to drive cars on public streets.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#29

Post by stsmwg »

One of the questions I've repeatedly had regarding FSD (and Tesla's approach in particular) is the notion of memory. While a lot of these scenarios are disturbing, I've seen people wavering on lanes, exits and attempting to turn the wrong way onto one-way streets. People have memory, however. If we go through the same confusing intersection a few times, we'll learn how to deal with that specific intersection. It seems like a connected group of FSD cars could perform that learning even faster since it could report that interaction with any car rather than driver-by-driver. Are any of the FSD implementations taking this into account?

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#30

Post by tshaddox »

ethbr0 wrote: post #9
darknavi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drivers who are not trained to specifically respond to it's mistakes What would this entail? Perhaps some sort of "license" which allows the user to operator a motor vehicle?

Safely operating a motor vehicle via a steering wheel, accelerator, and brake (and sometimes clutch and gearshift) is a completely different skillset than monitoring an automated system in realtime. Novel skill requirements include: interpreting FSD UI, anticipating common errors, recognizing intent behind FSD actions, & remaining vigilant even during periods of autonomous success.

No, it’s just unsafe (and presumably illegal in most places) to operate a motor vehicle without maintaining constant awareness of the road and control of the vehicle. There’s no additional training or license that permits you to stop maintaining that awareness and control, just like there’s no additional training that permits you to drive under the influence of alcohol.
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