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Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

montanafreepress.org

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Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#101

Post by kickout »

zachware wrote: post #80

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…

Sweet, there is only approximately 300 million acres of cropland in the United States alone.

Sun == free, rain == free

How does indoor ag plan on scaling up for anything other than super high margin vegetables and spices when their competitor (outdoor ag) has no cost associated with sun or rain? Not even to mention soil.

edit: I like indoor/vertical ag a lot (when applied correctly) When people try to propose producing things that have no chance of succeeding in our current Kardashev scale, it makes me think they are arguing in bad faith or with a fundamental lack of understanding of the problems faced in food production.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#102

Post by inglor_cz »

mathgladiator wrote: post #77
saalweachter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compou…

I've experienced this, and I've learned to search for the grains of truth. At core, the people doing this are highly disagreeable, and so they form their own opinions and go deep. I think going deep into crazy is natural, and the hard question is trying to balance that out with a deeper truth. At core, I think there is a deeper value in being the control group outside of the modern world. So, can food cure cancer? I…

AFAIK Amish people consume less alcohol and tobacco than the average American. Could this be a factor in their lower cancer rates?

Also - who diagnoses Amish people for cancer? Can there be a higher "dark number" of undetected cancers among them than among the general population?

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#103

Post by whatshisface »

zachware wrote: post #80

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…

Bad old farming: put plants in sun

Good new farming: put solar panels in sun, connect lightbulbs to solar panels, put plants under lights.

(Although it's not totally as daft as I make it sound, because it's theoretically possible to do frequency conversion in a way that makes all the energy of sunlight available to plants instead of everything but green.)

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#104

Post by jasonlaramburu »

zachware wrote: post #80

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…

What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting?

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#105

Post by asimpletune »

kickout wrote: post #79
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #57

What is the best criticism of regenerative ag? Everything I see about it is so positive that it seems crazy everyone hasn't switched. Are there really no downsides and it's just institutional inertia/caution holding everyone back?

Replies to your questions are good. I'd say the yield downside is the most glaring. Farmers really can't afford a have a self-imposed 'bad' year while they try to adopt new practices. Bankers and lenders (which farmers rely on for operating loans might not even approve--IDK). It absolutely takes some trial and error as no 2 farms are the same. This also hurts testing things out in a smaller scale on your farm. You ne…

What if the measurement wasn’t yield but total nutrition?

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#106

Post by tastyfreeze »

kickout wrote: post #86
cjrp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's any benefit to water hitting the leaves on the way down to the soil, i.e. cleaning the leaves. I know indoor plants require cleaning, but perhaps that's specifically because they're indoors.

Indoor plants require cleaning? Any links to that? first i've heard or seen that statement. I can't imagine ANY justification for literally cleaning a plant that just happens to be grown indoors...?

Dust on the leaves blocks light. Yes, you must clean your indoor plants. Outdoor plants get rained on. You can do the same for indoor plants by giving them a rinse occasionally.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#107

Post by throwaway0a5e »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #104
zachware wrote: post #80

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelli…

What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting?

> What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting?

Massive amounts of government regulation that inflates the price.

I.e. just weed so far.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#108

Post by tastyfreeze »

iorek_dev wrote: post #8

For those who are interested in the topic of soil reconstruction and balance in nature, some more sources: Documentary on the Loess plateau in China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLV_aVRUmQ Talk on the Caledonian Forest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGHUkby2Is Talk on using the "herd effect" in Africa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pI7IYaJLI A talk presenting a realistic view on soil reconstruction, what…

That Gabe Brown video convinced me a couple years ago. I agree, it is the most convincing soil health video and I share it every chance I get.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#109

Post by reedjosh »

Scoundreller wrote: post #96
mathgladiator wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've experienced this, and I've learned to search for the grains of truth. At core, the people doing this are highly disagreeable, and so they form their own opinions and go deep. I think going deep into crazy is natural, and the hard question is trying to balance that out with a deeper truth. At core, I think there is a deeper value in being the control group outside of the modern world. So, can food cure cancer? I…

While cancer is lower, their life expectancy is around the US average. US average lifespan isn’t something to write home about.

Does that account for infant mortality?

Life expectancy should really only be talked about in terms of expected lifespan of someone who's already made it to say 3 years old.

Otherwise, we get a very distorted view of modern medicine's ability to stave off death. Modern medicine has really done well at reducing infant mortality though.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#110

Post by tastyfreeze »

mathgladiator wrote: post #69
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #57

What is the best criticism of regenerative ag? Everything I see about it is so positive that it seems crazy everyone hasn't switched. Are there really no downsides and it's just institutional inertia/caution holding everyone back?

The key criticism is that it yields less, so it doesn't scale. Furthermore, it generally lacks uniformity, so you can't automate either.

Crops can be integrated and still planted and harvested mechanically. Planting differing height crops or same height crops with different seed sizes you can still use machines and harvest multiple crops from the same time/land.

Yield for some crops is actually more after the ~3 year transition period. However, for all crops quality is greatly improved. Better quality means you need to eat less to be satiated.

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