Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies • Hacker News Board

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#21

Post by kilovoltaire » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

_huayra_ wrote: post #13

mooreds wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just too bad they'll go spotify-only and thus seize to be a podcast... I'll have to stop recommending (and listening...) Yes, that bums me out too. It must make economic sense (for both parties; presumably the data in the app and exclusive content is a win for Spotify), but it's a real bummer that they are moving from a format that lets me, the listener, control how I want to listen, to a format that requires me to…

I don't know why they just don't use something like Acast which will take care of distribution (or maybe others I don't know of). The worst part of it is that Spotify's android app is buggy. Actually, that's an understatement: it's garbage. I shouldn't have it hang waiting for network connection just to navigate the offline portions of the app (e.g. downloaded podcasts). Anyone who writes a simple "music player" andr…

I assume any Spotify-only podcast is because Spotify is paying them to be exclusive?

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#22

Post by mastax » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

kickout wrote: post #17

stevespang wrote: post #9

Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.

The number is high, but farming in generally is a high risk bet. I often say to people, I need to spend (i.e risk) $100,000 for the chance to make $20,000-$30,000 if everything goes correctly. One major event and you just lost 100K. Scale up or down depending on the size of the farm.

Is crop insurance not effective at mitigating this risk?

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#23

Post by BobbyJo » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

kickout wrote: post #17

stevespang wrote: post #9

Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.

The number is high, but farming in generally is a high risk bet. I often say to people, I need to spend (i.e risk) $100,000 for the chance to make $20,000-$30,000 if everything goes correctly. One major event and you just lost 100K. Scale up or down depending on the size of the farm.

Is there no way for small farmers to band together for some sort of risk pooling?

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#24

Post by blueyes » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

Montanan here:

This is true. One of the regenerative crop types are pulses (lentils, chick peas), and MT produces a lot.

https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/pulse-info/resources-pdf/Growing...

The state often appears in stories about agriculture in precarious environments (See Jared Diamond's "Collapse" for one example.)

Montana is largely a semi-arid desert, especially over the 2/3's of the state that are northern Great Plains. East of the continental divide, it gets about 10" of rain per year, which is about a quarter of the US average.

And with climate change, it is more precarious. Temperatures have been unusually high this summer, and it's fire season now. Weather has become more volatile. (Cherry crops on the Flathead have been destroyed two of the last three years.)

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#25

Post by stonemetal12 » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #12

stevespang wrote: post #9

Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.

I think I read that many farmers are required to use them by contract. If that's the case then a lot of farmers don't have that luxury.

That just moves the thought back a step. Why would they sign a contract to pay $200k to use those chemicals? They wouldn't if there weren't any benefits to it.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#26

Post by CuriouslyC » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #18

stevespang wrote: post #9

Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.

Presumably these expenses have benefits, otherwise companies wouldn't be using them? It's like saying a company saved $200k by dumping their computers... so they can do everything on paper.

Most agricultural chemical products are profitable in the way a loan is profitable. You get higher yields now, but you're disrupting the environment and making it more vulnerable to pests, drought and erosion in the long run. As these problems start to become apparent, your only solution to maintain yields is to use more and more products, until the land is so marginal it collapses.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#27

Post by kickout » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

mastax wrote: post #20

datavirtue wrote: post #15

I just got back from touring Oregon and Washington and I got to see a lot of fascinating agriculture. Primarily hazelnut trees along with some berries other speciality crops and "hay." The nut tree farmers need some help. They are spraying water scattershot to soak the ground. What's more is that they have the ground prepared as perfectly flat bare soil--I presume to make automated harvesting possible. It looks like…

Drip irrigation works best when delivering water directly to the roots of small annual plants. Trees have large root systems, and are planted closely enough that you need to water the entire ground. Perhaps a network of smaller sprayers below the leaf canopy would reduce evaporative losses.

There does exist sub-surface irrigation setups. They aren't popular, but obviously would deliver water closer to the roots of tree. Note: I haven't ever seen a tree farm with sub-surface irrigation, only annual fruits/vegetables/crops

https://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/agriculture/subs...

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#28

Post by CuriouslyC » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

kickout wrote: post #17

stevespang wrote: post #9

Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.

The number is high, but farming in generally is a high risk bet. I often say to people, I need to spend (i.e risk) $100,000 for the chance to make $20,000-$30,000 if everything goes correctly. One major event and you just lost 100K. Scale up or down depending on the size of the farm.

Sustainable farming is a terrible business as long as giant unsustainable factory farms are a thing. If you want to make money farming, you need to either go the vertical integration or agro-tourism route.

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#29

Post by kickout » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

mastax wrote: post #22

kickout wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number is high, but farming in generally is a high risk bet. I often say to people, I need to spend (i.e risk) $100,000 for the chance to make $20,000-$30,000 if everything goes correctly. One major event and you just lost 100K. Scale up or down depending on the size of the farm.

Is crop insurance not effective at mitigating this risk?

Yes it is. I don't mean to ignore that. Not everyone gets it and its not 100% coverage (usually 50-85% in my experience).

I would argue the pendulum has swung too far with crop insurance. There are acres that have no business being in production and rely on federally subsidized crop insurance programs. Needs to be re-thought IMO

Re: Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

#30

Post by kickout » Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #23

kickout wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number is high, but farming in generally is a high risk bet. I often say to people, I need to spend (i.e risk) $100,000 for the chance to make $20,000-$30,000 if everything goes correctly. One major event and you just lost 100K. Scale up or down depending on the size of the farm.

Is there no way for small farmers to band together for some sort of risk pooling?

Yes, farmers have banded together and make large purchases and grain sales. These are known as 'co-ops' in the US. The idea of them is great.

There is a WIDE variance on the quality of co-ops. Some are great and well-run and provide the intended benefits to farmers. Others would make the mafia looks less corrupt (seriously, the CEOs of some co-ops make 500k+ salaries).