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Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

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Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#71

Post by marak830 »

DocTomoe wrote: post #13
amelius wrote: post #7

When a quasi-monopolist threatens to exit your market ... perhaps the reason why isn't really all that important.

Sure. On the other hand, this will create societal backlash, not against Apple, but against the government. Tracy needs her iPhone.

Maybe it's time Tracy grew up.

Flippant answer aside, we need governments to learn to stand up more against the superlarge multinational companies that think they can bully their way over what a countries government thinks is good for the population. (I know a whole bunch of hand waving - elected by the people for the people that doesn't always work).

We should applaud a government for standing up though.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#72

Post by arcturus17 »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47
arcturus17 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about your politics, but regardless, “the UK will be able to build an Apple competitor” sounds like a level 99 brexiteer delusion.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

I can certainly imagine the UK doing well in some tech niches, but not in high-end, global scale consumer electronics like Apple, no.

The high-end mobile phone market outside Apple is a shark-infested red ocean to start with. Then there's the fact that even if Apple stopped operating in the UK, you'd still have to compete with them globally.

I cannot foresee a Black Swan event like a random dude from the Midlands becoming the next Steve Jobs, but other than that I don't think it's worth entertaining that there will be a real British contender to the American trillion dollar mastodon.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#73

Post by sofixa »

mjburgess wrote: post #65
ben_w wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a Brit, I don’t feel that I understand the British system, though from everything post 2016 I’ve reached the conclusion that neither does the current British government, and therefore they may well censure the judges even though the judges are supposed to be independent. Or they might do nothing, because Apple isn’t a British company and they want to help Amstrad take over its market share.

The judiciary isnt supposed to be independent. That is the american system. In the UK all power is held by parliament and extends from parliament.

Judicial independence is a mainstay of most democratic countries ( separation of powers in general).

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#74

Post by jsbdk »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #64
jsbdk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay x or I'll break your legs.

I think you've gotten your example backwards. If you tell me "Pay $X or I'll break your legs", and I say I'll take the broken legs, and you break my legs -- you really want to argue that that's the decision branch where I wasn't really making a choice?

Of course you were... You could've paid.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#75

Post by arcturus17 »

bencollier49 wrote: post #68
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

We have tons of opportunities in the UK to build a mobile firm. ARM is based here, for starters. Unfortunately with Brexit it has become fashionable in certain quarters to 'do-down' the UK's capabilities.

Like I said in another comment, the high-end consumer mobile market outside of Apple is a red ocean and I seriously doubt the UK would be able to build a global scale corporation commanding ludicrous margins like Apple.

> with Brexit it has become fashionable in certain quarters to 'do-down' the UK's capabilities

It has also certainly become fashionable in other quarters to 'do-up' the UK's capabilities.

I don't deny that the UK has technological clout beyond digital, with excellent universities, a great tradition in science and engineering, and a global hub in London.

But a competitor to Apple? Come on.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#76

Post by salawat »

throw0101a wrote: post #22
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

> A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the state to extract money from companies actually producing goods. Devil's advocate: If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the pate…

What you're saying:

>If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the patent to get something, and then the new holder can use their potentially larger resources to get licensing compliance.

Hits the crux of the issue. A patent is economically/politically/socially worthless to the inventor themselves without the ability to spend inordinate amounts of legal muscle to tell people they can't use it, and the effective exercise by a patent holder of a patent renders the patent valueless to society for the duration, and creates many perverse incentives and business models for non-practicing entities.

In fact, at this point I'd argue the corpus of patents out there is nowadays less useful to the inventive than it is to the legal profession to keep themselves in work. The last time I read a patent to truly understand something was to figure out how a fire-alarm use casing went back together, and even then, that was of spotty levels of help.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#77

Post by bb101 »

arcturus17 wrote: post #72
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

I can certainly imagine the UK doing well in some tech niches, but not in high-end, global scale consumer electronics like Apple, no. The high-end mobile phone market outside Apple is a shark-infested red ocean to start with. Then there's the fact that even if Apple stopped operating in the UK, you'd still have to compete with them globally. I cannot foresee a Black Swan event like a random dude from the Midlands bec…

To be fair, a random dude from Essex designed the original iMac, iPod and most Apple devices thereafter.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#78

Post by salawat »

mjburgess wrote: post #32
Taniwha wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this look different from someone holding a perfectly valid patent that Apple was using without licensing it? (I have no idea as to whether this one is valid or not, I'm as against patent trolls suing people with bogus patents as anyone else) Surely the patent IS the innovation, and a perfectly valid way to use that innovation is to license it to larger companies.

The patent holder would be a company operating in the same market as apple, having a viable market for products somewhat related to the patents they hold. Eg., an electronics company. If they can't meet that condition, sell the patent to a company who can. They'll actually innovate with it (ie., use the licence feeds to fund something useful).

This means all patents will eventually flow to a single holder over time (the one most able to offer a patent buyout pipeline). This is a terrible idea without strong anti-trust and forced break-up and anti-consolidation enforcement.

I hate patent trolls too, but if your two outcomes are A) all you'll get is a bunch of umbrella companies coupling a legal firm to a modest widget mill. This is a great way to proliferate e-trash though and B ) The leviathan in town sets up a window to buy out every patent they can to save no long term litigation costs... Maybe your system is flawed to begin with.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#79

Post by bb101 »

paulcole wrote: post #27
moshiv wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will never happen. Just have to count the number of iphones and macs in the hands of people with power.

Also it’s a nearly free victory to anybody challenging the incumbents in power at the time. Imagine being one of the people on duty when Apple (a hugely popular consumer brand) pulls out of your country. Hard to explain that one to the constituency and come out looking good.

We'd have new legislation within a week targeting patent trolls. I can't imagine anything that'd make a government more unpopular than taking away everyone's iPhones, iPads and Macs.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#80

Post by arethuza »

ben_w wrote: post #60
chasil wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interests of demonstrating a harsh penalty for judicial overreach, I would like to see this case made, and Apple abandon the market. I don't know the British system well enough to understand what reaction public opinion would have on members of parliament, but some censure of the judge and reversal of the patent decision could happen.

Even as a Brit, I don’t feel that I understand the British system, though from everything post 2016 I’ve reached the conclusion that neither does the current British government, and therefore they may well censure the judges even though the judges are supposed to be independent. Or they might do nothing, because Apple isn’t a British company and they want to help Amstrad take over its market share.

"I don’t feel that I understand the British system"

Probably doesn't help that there isn't a single UK-wide legal system...

Edit: There are 3 or 4 legal systems in the UK depending on how you count them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom#Thre...

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