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Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

appleinsider.com

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Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#61

Post by prepend »

gcthomas wrote: post #21
mhandley wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's around 7 million phones per year. Assuming around £700/phone and 30% profit (very rough made up numbers), that should be £1.5B/year profit. If the judgement is for £3B to £5B as the article states, I can see why they might decide to exit the UK market. But that only makes sense if they don't then lose the patent cases in other juristictions, and end up having to pay similar royalties anyway.

I'm not sure that leaving the market will absolve Apple of paying the judgement, so staying in the UK market will help them recoup the cost. Leaving would be unlikely to improve their bottom line, so the judge was right - no evidence Apple will leave. This is just posturing, which won't go down well in front of a High Court judge.

I think the intent would be to avoid paying the fine. Without assets, revenue, or profit the UK wouldn’t have anything to seize to pay the levy.

The judgement holder could then attempt to go after Apple in other countries, but I think that would result in a court case about whether that’s possible or not.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#62

Post by thaumasiotes »

onion2k wrote: post #59
thaumasiotes wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something very important to note here is that the comment was made in regard to a case arguing whether or not Apple agree to be legal bound by another case next year to decide the patent license fee. Apple are arguing that they'll leave the market if the fee is too high. The reality is actually that if they agree to a binding agreement in the current case, and then decide the fee is too high after the case next yea…

No doubt it's possible to reframe it so it looks like Apple's decision but it isn't really. It's more like; Court: Pay $x fee Apple: No Court: Your punishment is that you're no longer to allowed to sell iPhones The outcome is the same, but the reality is that Apple really don't want to stop selling iPhones and would never voluntarily stop, so they're not really choosing to if they're legally prevented from doing so.

In your framing, did Apple not choose to say "No"? It's not like they're not aware of the situation -- you're commenting on them talking about it.

The court is providing circumstances. Apple responds to circumstances. But the only way they can respond is by determining what they want to do, and then trying to do it.

Note also that in your framing, unless you believe the court would respond to Apple attempting to pay the fee by saying "no, you had your chance, it's gone now, get out of the market", it's still Apple choosing not to sell iPhones.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#63

Post by ben_w »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47
arcturus17 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about your politics, but regardless, “the UK will be able to build an Apple competitor” sounds like a level 99 brexiteer delusion.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

I expect any change in the marketplace that a startup could fill is one where Apple is already non-dominant, and therefore not preventing a vacuum by occupying. Worse, in the hypothetical where Apple left the UK in order to not be bound by a UK-specific IP infringement judgment, Apple would be have greater liberty to just fire up the metaphorical photocopier.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#64

Post by thaumasiotes »

jsbdk wrote: post #57
thaumasiotes wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something very important to note here is that the comment was made in regard to a case arguing whether or not Apple agree to be legal bound by another case next year to decide the patent license fee. Apple are arguing that they'll leave the market if the fee is too high. The reality is actually that if they agree to a binding agreement in the current case, and then decide the fee is too high after the case next yea…

Pay x or I'll break your legs.

I think you've gotten your example backwards. If you tell me "Pay $X or I'll break your legs", and I say I'll take the broken legs, and you break my legs -- you really want to argue that that's the decision branch where I wasn't really making a choice?

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#65

Post by mjburgess »

ben_w wrote: post #60
chasil wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interests of demonstrating a harsh penalty for judicial overreach, I would like to see this case made, and Apple abandon the market. I don't know the British system well enough to understand what reaction public opinion would have on members of parliament, but some censure of the judge and reversal of the patent decision could happen.

Even as a Brit, I don’t feel that I understand the British system, though from everything post 2016 I’ve reached the conclusion that neither does the current British government, and therefore they may well censure the judges even though the judges are supposed to be independent. Or they might do nothing, because Apple isn’t a British company and they want to help Amstrad take over its market share.

The judiciary isnt supposed to be independent. That is the american system.

In the UK all power is held by parliament and extends from parliament.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#66

Post by [deleted] »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47
arcturus17 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about your politics, but regardless, “the UK will be able to build an Apple competitor” sounds like a level 99 brexiteer delusion.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

[deleted]

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#67

Post by onion2k »

mhandley wrote: post #12
tudorw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An estimated 19,452 iPhones were sold every day in the UK in 2019", give them a break, obviously struggling to get traction.

So that's around 7 million phones per year. Assuming around £700/phone and 30% profit (very rough made up numbers), that should be £1.5B/year profit. If the judgement is for £3B to £5B as the article states, I can see why they might decide to exit the UK market. But that only makes sense if they don't then lose the patent cases in other juristictions, and end up having to pay similar royalties anyway.

The £3-5bn fee is a one-off payment (I think..), so you can't really compare it to a single year's profit. It'd need to be amortized against the lifetime of all the iPhone products that are covered by the patent.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#68

Post by bencollier49 »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #47
arcturus17 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about your politics, but regardless, “the UK will be able to build an Apple competitor” sounds like a level 99 brexiteer delusion.

Imagining a change in the tech landscape isn't that absurd. If there's a vacuum in the market, do you not think there are capable technology startups in the UK that could fill it?

We have tons of opportunities in the UK to build a mobile firm. ARM is based here, for starters.

Unfortunately with Brexit it has become fashionable in certain quarters to 'do-down' the UK's capabilities.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#69

Post by ben_w »

sdflhasjd wrote: post #49
Zenst wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/apple-app-store-was-a-majo... I'd say it is not so much the consumers that would be impacted by such a hissy fit that Apple has mooted.

Of course, that's a claim from Apple in response claims of anticompetitive behaviour. I find it difficult to believe, as a mobile developer myself, that 330,000 jobs are being supported by the App Store in any meaningful way.

Sounds about right to me.

Fermi estimate:

apps-not-abandoned * average-developers-per-app-this-year ~> 2 million apps * 2 developer-months ~> 333,000 developers

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#70

Post by ben_w »

mjburgess wrote: post #65
ben_w wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a Brit, I don’t feel that I understand the British system, though from everything post 2016 I’ve reached the conclusion that neither does the current British government, and therefore they may well censure the judges even though the judges are supposed to be independent. Or they might do nothing, because Apple isn’t a British company and they want to help Amstrad take over its market share.

The judiciary isnt supposed to be independent. That is the american system. In the UK all power is held by parliament and extends from parliament.

The power may flow from parliament, but the judiciary is still (supposed to be) independent:

• https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/the-judiciary-t...

• https://www.judiciary.uk/announcements/swearing-in-of-the-ne...

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