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People Staring at Computers

kylemcdonald.net

161–170 of 349 posts

Re: People Staring at Computers

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my understanding those computers were opened for people to use, the guy did not bypass any security measure and he did not accept any TOS. Those computers should (but who knows) be reset to factory settings periodically.

Ah yes. When I let someone borrow my phone or computer I totally think they should be allowed to install whatever spyware they want. It's my fault I didn't have them accept a TOS.

And what law is your friend breaking? What if it was a webpage or applet ?

I don't think is as obvious that is illegal but IMO the people wronged here are the poor Apple shoppers that become part of the art, the article is trying to justify why this is allowed (public place , already recorded by cameras) but who knows what a judge will decide. But this s not something for NSA/FBI to waste their time on.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comparison is flawed, if I install a whiteboard on a public place and say to everyone, "please have a test" then can you complain if someone draw something you don't like on it? You did not made the person sign some contract on what he is allowed to draw or write. In this case Apple said , please come and test this machine, do whatever you want, use the browser, click around, and did not made the guy sig…

> I install a whiteboard on a public place You're already off. This was private property. > and say to everyone, "please have a test" then can you complain if someone draw something you don't like on it This would be more like bolting a camera to the whiteboard in your private place of business. And yes, sometimes comparisons fall apart.

I think a place can be private property and at the same time a public place(not a public property) , but I am not a native English speaker so maybe this terms are not equivalent.

But image the whiteboard was in a mall that is not owned by the government and people are encouraged to use it as they want.

I agree that publishing those images of poeple without consent is the important part, the guy could have just use the browser and use some video chat app bypassing the install an applet part(probably this tech was not ready at that time). Still this issue is not something for NSA or other 3 letter agency to get involved in. In fact if this issue would have been handled by the normal procedure it might have be resolved with some punishment for the guy, but involving the big agency backfired.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I can't buy a gallon of milk at Kroger now without the whole transaction being recorded on video. They don't have my consent, but they do it anyway.

If you come to my house, you'll get recorded on my Nest cam. Perfectly legal situation. If you come to my house and secretly installed a Nest cam to record me and my guests, that would be illegal. More to the point, if you come to my house and installed spyware on my computer to take pictures of me, that would be illegal. The author is in the second situation. Kroger is in the first. Do you understand the gigantic di…

If a child gets born into a dystopian world where they can't buy food or as much as take public transport without being tracked, despite them not wanting this nor ever having agreed to it, do you think that would be wrong?

Re: People Staring at Computers

#164

It seems highly petty to let people install and run random software and then try to bully them with legal action when they take you up on it. Don't they have a term for it? Entrapment? Also, what a great legal system where if you have money, you can bully people who don't for years on end.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I always thought it was a pretty questionable idea that they have completely unprotected computers that they let anyone just walk in and use. I wonder if that's still the case.

When you implicitly suggest "do whatever you want on these computers" (by having zero security or limited features whatsoever, nor any verbal or written ToS or even vaguely-suggested "house rules"), and let someone download and install software on every computer in the store (?!??), I don't see how they can later turn around and say "hey, but not that like that!" and call the Secret Service.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#165
post #89

The most curious thing about this project is how people seem to have a visceral reaction to having photos of them made without their permission; but having their activity tracked online hardly evokes the same reaction. It's weird. What harm is a random picture of my face in public going to do? But still some people worry so much about that. Whereas only very few people show the same reaction to the fact that Google s…

It's magical thinking. People don't understand how technology works. More than that - because it's not really about computers . Most people don't understand how reality works. What is information. How reasoning works. What can you infer from observations. They feel (and sometimes, in some places, really think) that a picture is like a piece of their soul. But it isn't. It's just a hash of their phenotype, useful most…

Let's be careful and not blame people for all of it because the Facebooks of the world go a very long way to make sure actually understanding what's going on with your data is extremely difficult.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#166

This reminds me of a random, but chilling, scene in "Minority Report". The protagonist confronts a man he thinks is responsible for killing his child. The man decides to reassure the protagonist by explaining how kind he was to the child, and made sure the child didn't suffer when he killed him. He's presenting it as though this is a legitimate defense for such an obvious violation. The part that sticks with me is th…

I agree with that assessment.

To my mind, the act of capturing faces in and off itself isn't even the reason why he was investigated. Consent from members of the public is an entirely separate discussion.

This boils entirely down to him not having formal consent from Apple. He simply walked into the store and quite literally installed a small application on each Macbook without Apple's consent.

> I remember being a bit nervous on the first visit.

> Not because I thought I was doing anything wrong, or because I was worried about getting "caught". It was more like stage fright. It was a performance, and there was no telling what would happen next. I had made preparations, and I was excited to see the results.

> I walked into the store and pulled out my sketchbook. I made a map of the store, including all the tables, and counted how many computers were at each table. Each store has something like 50 machines. More than half were in use. I went to the first open computer and typed in a short URL to download the app. I looked around to double check that there were no terms of service I was missing. If there were, and if it said anything about "installing applications", I would have had to go back home and write an HTML5 or Flash version.

> The app was maybe two megabytes, and took 15 seconds to download. Sometimes I would open another tab and load Flickr or Open Processing so I had an excuse if someone asked why I was comparing every single computer. In the process, I learned there are in fact some minor differences between Java on the different machines.

> What was probably 10 minutes felt like 30. I looked at my sketchbook to make sure all the open computers were checked off, and decided that was enough. Hundreds of photos had already started pouring in. Before leaving, I sat on a bench for a few minutes to watch people. Thinking about their posture, their gestures, their expressions. Months later a friend would tell me, "those faces are synonymous with the faces we have when we are alone". We all really looked the same. I checked the upload page from my iPod to confirm that everything was running, and left the store.

Moreover, at some point, one of those devices was being serviced by a technician. His application took pictures at that time.

https://www.wired.com/2012/07/people-staring-at-computers/

All of that in and of itself would have been enough to be considered "crossing red lines and boundaries". It's staggering how he believed that taking pictures of persons was the bigger legal liability he was exposing himself to.

If anything, if he'd understood the importance of obtaining consent for using a publicly available terminal, the better option would have been taking his project to a public institution - public library, university, town hall,... - and have the application installed having up front legal consent and support from the collaborating institution.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#167
post #160

This reminds me of a random, but chilling, scene in "Minority Report". The protagonist confronts a man he thinks is responsible for killing his child. The man decides to reassure the protagonist by explaining how kind he was to the child, and made sure the child didn't suffer when he killed him. He's presenting it as though this is a legitimate defense for such an obvious violation. The part that sticks with me is th…

> such a viscerally gross violation How did you reach this conclusion? Because your entire response hinges on this being true. I highly doubt it is a "violation" in the first place, and certainly not a "gross violation", the courts decided that it was not, as you call it "an amoral and illegal way for him to use people without their consent" (well, maybe amoral, as courts have nothing to say about that).

It didn’t get to court, so this is not necessarily legal. Also GP is talking from an ethical perspective, and while I hadn’t thought too much about it on my first read, I do agree that the experiment is highly unethical.

Re: People Staring at Computers

#168
I'd be interested to see a piece of paper's view of someone writing. Eg a letter.

Just to see what, if any, difference there would be. Mostly to get some indication of how zoned out we get when we use screens versus a book made of paper.

On a side note: how many people here use webcam covers to block that camera? I do.

But how many people block their phone's selfie camera as well? Shouldn't we be more careful about that?

Re: People Staring at Computers

#169
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this form of art is possible without some level of ‘doing things without anyone knowing’, but I also kind of agree that I would be unamused if it happened to me.

Then you shouldn't do this kind of art! It's official, people have gone absolutely wild in this thread. You can't just do whatever you want in the name of "art". How you got that idea, I have no clue.

Maybe you're not into art much, but that's one of the main points of it - to challenge preconceptions and make the viewer reflect on things. The entire art history is filled with examples of artists getting accused of being immoral or doing illegal things. When you do political art this is almost unavoidable, actually. Is the art of Ai WeiWei wrong? The Chinese government alleges he's broken the law. How about Banksy, that guy's a criminal, right? Could the whole point of this artwork be to make us reflect on current laws and societal attitudes regarding data gathering?

Re: People Staring at Computers

#170
post #160

This reminds me of a random, but chilling, scene in "Minority Report". The protagonist confronts a man he thinks is responsible for killing his child. The man decides to reassure the protagonist by explaining how kind he was to the child, and made sure the child didn't suffer when he killed him. He's presenting it as though this is a legitimate defense for such an obvious violation. The part that sticks with me is th…

> such a viscerally gross violation How did you reach this conclusion? Because your entire response hinges on this being true. I highly doubt it is a "violation" in the first place, and certainly not a "gross violation", the courts decided that it was not, as you call it "an amoral and illegal way for him to use people without their consent" (well, maybe amoral, as courts have nothing to say about that).

It is, he never asks people for there consent. Even apple does that (although in a never read privacy policy) but they do
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