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A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

spiegel.de

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was/is important for young nations and you don’t have to associate it with negative things only.

Ui, "young nations", that sounds like a wonderful excuse. Of course, since these nations are young, almost infants actually, they need protection, right? Like small children sitting in a school bus? The first thing that came to mind when I read "young nations" was israel. A wonderful young state mostly occupied with killing off the people who were living on that land prior before the british decided to give it away.…

To be fair, the Bulgarians (and Macedonians) haven't done much killings since the two balkan wars before ww1. They tend to co-exist mostly peacefully with their neighbors, especially the last 15 years.

The serbians have been the ones trying to kill almost every other ethnicity around them. They are the bad guys of the region, yet they tend to claim victimhood the most (from NATO, to Croatians in WW2, to XXX ethnicity...).

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#63
post #50

Strange, not any word about Montenegro. One of the former republic. A beautiful place to visit.

it is very beautiful.... it has its own tensions. Montenegrins (which are slavs) are more west looking, vs. Serbs (which are also slavs, who are more east looking), vs. Albanians who are not slavs and really want to join Albania anyway, and the are the people of the Sanjak region, who are closer related to Bosnians but are are mixture of slavs + others.

So, Montenegro is seen as a sleepy buffer state, created and kept by the great powers to keep Serbia (and Russia by proxy) away from the Adriatic and the Mediterranean Sea. It usually tries not to get involved into controversies. During the Yugoslav wars they wanted to stay out, but got ropped in by the Serbs.

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ancient kingdom of Macedon is geographically located in Greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/m... That region is still called Macedon and the modern inhabitants of that region are themselves called Macedonians. As opposed to the slavic macedonians, they do have strong historical, linguistic and ethnic connections to the term. Do you see the problem here?

As you can see from the map Macedon was partially occupying territory of the modern country Macedonia. But what is more important than arguing about Ancient Times is respecting the national identity of the people that live today. The history of the name is complicated and we don’t share the same views with the Greeks but that is not the reason to fight over a name. Everyone in the world knows Greece. And nobody think…

I'm not talking about the Greeks, undoubtedly they also have their own concerns. But from a historical, scholarly or researcher perspective, you can't deny that this situation is very confusing. As an American who is interested in history and Ancient Greece, I can't in good conscience refer to your country as Macedonia in conversation. I always use the formal name "North Macedonia" and pretty much always have to explain the history behind that name.

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#65
All: please don't wage national or religious wars via internet comments on Hacker News. There's a lot of that in the thread below—not cool, and not what this site is for.

If you're going to comment on a topic like this please do so thoughtfully, substantively, and with respect for those who disagree—assume that there are a lot of them here, and their reasons for holding their views are just as valid, and just as rooted in their background, as yours are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#66
post #47

The viewpoint that this article is missing: much of this “reversion” to anti-democratic governments in Central Europe (Visegrad+ Balkans) is coming from Western EU members pushing their newfangled cultural ideologies a little too hard. Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Ex-Yugoslavia want to be a part of the EU for economic reasons, not so they can participate in American-led cultural movements. If the EU doesn’t wise up and…

I call bullshit on this. It's a propaganda tale from the controlled media in these states to avoid having to talk about oligarchs, corruption and and real issues. At least it's pretty visible in Czechia, where Andrej Babiš and the media controlled by him to use this narration. Hungary probably the same.

I'm afraid this is not at all bullshit, even though I wish it was so.

While it is true that these opposing countries no doubt each have their own problems with (local/national) corruption and oligarchies, the ideologies that are currently being forced on them are very much the product of corruption and oligarchies on a much larger scale (just better hidden). In fact, none of these ideologies are what they claim to be.

This is all about powers who have essentially hijacked the EU project for their own greedy gains. This ideological criticism in reality just attempts to crush the (relatively amateurishly organized) local competition to their own hegemony. That isn't propaganda. It's an organization who cleverly knows how to abuse the general ignorance of most citizens regarding these countries and abusing it to frame reality into a conveniently useful picture/justification for their attempt to take (even more) control.

As much as there is all kind of things wrong with these opposing countries, of which there indeed is plenty, there is equally nothing good or lofty about what the EU is doing at the moment. As ironic as it might be, the local corruption and oligarchies in these countries may in fact only be child's play compared what has infested the EU.

The main difference probably being the success with which criminal elements within the EU have managed to hide their activities from the general population. Probably not in the least by "outsourcing" a lot of its business to either outside EU, or to local shady endeavors in these countries now criticized, where it's a lot easier to hide how profits are being made.

Of course, countries like Czechia, Hungary, Poland and a few more certainly should do more about their internal corruption. But what most people forget is that the current status quo to a large degree was build up and supported by powerful figures within the EU. Most of that because these corruptions at the fringes of the EU territory just so happened to be very convenient and profitable for the people who "accidentally" let all of this happen on their watch. Mind you, figures like Victor Orban became as powerful as they are now by gaming EU rules, with the full knowledge of those who made and governed those rules!

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the official explanation was an "interpretation error" of the vector image used as the source. The printer has taken "full responsibility" for this mistake and apologized. How convenient. From a technical perspective not very plausible, if not borderline impossible. More likely, a deliberate choice made by a powerful individual, for which anyone with any actual knowledge or proof knows all to well that it w…

Thanks for the background. Fully confirm what you say about the people. It's just sad to see how much damage a couple of ruthless, self-service people can do. But blaming the printer, really? That's like blaming an intern...

> But blaming the printer, really? That's like blaming an intern...

To clarify, I mean the printer as a company, not the device .. and yes, it indeed is as bad as blaming the intern.

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#68
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call bullshit on this. It's a propaganda tale from the controlled media in these states to avoid having to talk about oligarchs, corruption and and real issues. At least it's pretty visible in Czechia, where Andrej Babiš and the media controlled by him to use this narration. Hungary probably the same.

Do you really think that every single country in the world has the same values as certain groups in the EU?

As far as I know most laws that are 'pushed' are based on providing equality, protection of minorities and avoiding discrimination (i.e. LBGT). Basically things like these are not okay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_anti-LGBT_law

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#69
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call bullshit on this. It's a propaganda tale from the controlled media in these states to avoid having to talk about oligarchs, corruption and and real issues. At least it's pretty visible in Czechia, where Andrej Babiš and the media controlled by him to use this narration. Hungary probably the same.

I'm afraid this is not at all bullshit, even though I wish it was so. While it is true that these opposing countries no doubt each have their own problems with (local/national) corruption and oligarchies, the ideologies that are currently being forced on them are very much the product of corruption and oligarchies on a much larger scale (just better hidden). In fact, none of these ideologies are what they claim to be…

> the ideologies that are currently being forced on them are very much the product of corruption and oligarchies on a much larger scale (just better hidden). In fact, none of these ideologies are what claim to be. This is all about powers who have essentially hijacked the EU project for their own greedy gains. The ideological criticism in reality just attempts to crush the (relatively amateurishly organized) local competition to their own hegemony. That isn't propaganda. It's an organization who cleverly knows how to abuse the general ignorance of most citizens regarding these countries and abusing it to frame reality into a conveniently useful picture/justification.

care to elaborate? Is it about german/france hegonomy? About keeping the eastern countries for cheap labour from western coorporations?

There is lot's to dislike about the EU - would like to hear more details.

Re: A journey through the troubled former Yugoslavia

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Nobody in their right mind wants an Islamic state there. No sane muslim in BiH wants that. The fear of "Islamic state" in Bosnia is right wing trope.

Reminds me of a story my mother told me. Basically, my family are all "Muslims" and "religious". But there was one dark secret... my grandpa loved bacon. Whenever his cousin who was a Hodja came to visit us, my grandpa would hide his home brew raki and his lovely bacon.
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